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Old November 21st, 2012, 08:39 AM   #41

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Originally Posted by Jhangora View Post
About bloodshed over Holy sites, I think believing Jews, Christians, and Muslims are better suited to answer the question.
No, actually they are not.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:24 AM   #42

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There were many options offered to the Zionists but Palestine trumped them for a few reasons:

1) Jews were historically tied to it, so they would risk leaving everything they owned for it more so than any other place in the world (except America and maybe Canada). People needed to be convinced to move to Palestine because it wasn't exactly an ideal place to live (though no other option was either).

2) The location was the best. The Pampas, Siberia, West Texas, Central Australia, ect. were all in the middle of nowhere, which made establishing a country impractical. Also, people were probably offended by the implication that Europeans wanted them as far away as possible.

3) Palestine had a substantial Jewish population already. Most of it was concentrated in Jerusalem, but Jews were a majority there long before Zionism emerged. Nowhere else had extant Jewish populations.

4) They thought the locals wouldn't mind. Herzl writes frequently about how the local Arabs would be enthused to have new employment opportunities and economic development in their land. He also thought that Jews could contribute economically to the Ottoman Empire. At the time, the land being sold by the Arabs was often uninhabited and owned by absentee landlords, so dislocation of Arabs wasn't thought to be an issue.

Looking back it seems like Palestine was the best option, and that the Zionists made the right choice going there. It was the naivety of the Zionists and the spread of European anti-Semitism around the Arab world that made Zionism into a problem, not the establishment of a Jewish homeland.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:27 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Exactly how many Jews were there before the Balfour Declaration (1917)?

According to the census five years later (1922) there were just 83,970 Jews (for a total population of 649,048).

This was almost at the end of the Third Zionist Aliyah (Jewish immigration wave); according to the Jewish Virtual Library, in all some 115,000 Jewish immigrants arrived to Palestine just in these waves...

(Obviously some of them returned back home)



BTW, I understand that the claim for a national territory came virtually entirely from Jews in Europe, not from the evidently scarce Jewish population already living in the Ottoman Palestine previous to the aforementioned First Aliyah (1882-1903) among whom Zionism seems to have been virtually entirely absent.
Like i mentioned in other posts some of my acnestors came in 1865. Does that mean that when zionists started to emigrate they were anti-zionist?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:46 AM   #44
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No, actually they are not.
I think the situation in the Middle-East is a very complicated one. I agree that there is no valid reason for killing civilians but the Middle-East is a playground of different World Powers due to its Mineral Wealth and Religious issues.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 01:21 PM   #45

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It's out of doubt that the Jews aspired to have a state in Palestine. Obvious. Since well before Christ Jews had their own home land there. And it's clear that a "Zionist" movement had no other option but Zion [Sion, the hill] ...

So, the list of alternatives can be long, but in the core of the world wide nationalist movement of the Jews there was Israel [meaning the geographical definition].
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Old November 21st, 2012, 01:59 PM   #46

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Greetings Fellow Historical Laymen,

I have a nagging question that has hounded for years.

I have never found anyone of the right intellectual bent so to speak to discuss this with.

Since I tend to view everything through a historical lens I am forced to ask this question.

Israel, Palestine the whole mess there. It all stems from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire giving the Jews their own homeland thanks to the Balfour Agreement I believe it was.

But here is my thing, is it karma that has rained some much ill tidings on the Jews over the centuries? Even to this day. When I say this, I have no personal animus against them but, for one people to have suffered so much at the hands of so many. What is the true cause of this?

Karma for the atrocities they dished out to the native people of the Levant during their Exodus and subsequent settling of the area that would be Israel.

Is it a simple case of scapegoating them by the powers that be? And why would so many choose these people to do it to? Surly it cannot be for the sole reason of their betrayal of Jesus of Nazareth for they were feeling the barbs of injustice long before that.

So what is it?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 02:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Paragonrex View Post
Greetings Fellow Historical Laymen,

I have a nagging question that has hounded for years.

I have never found anyone of the right intellectual bent so to speak to discuss this with.

Since I tend to view everything through a historical lens I am forced to ask this question.

Israel, Palestine the whole mess there. It all stems from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire giving the Jews their own homeland thanks to the Balfour Agreement I believe it was.

But here is my thing, is it karma that has rained some much ill tidings on the Jews over the centuries? Even to this day. When I say this, I have no personal animus against them but, for one people to have suffered so much at the hands of so many. What is the true cause of this?

Karma for the atrocities they dished out to the native people of the Levant during their Exodus and subsequent settling of the area that would be Israel.

Is it a simple case of scapegoating them by the powers that be? And why would so many choose these people to do it to? Surly it cannot be for the sole reason of their betrayal of Jesus of Nazareth for they were feeling the barbs of injustice long before that.

So what is it?
Nothing of that sort. The main reason for the anti-semitism in the history of Europe is the banker Jews. You see banker Jews tend to be quite rich and every once in a while a country gets in a bad financial situation, the citizens become poor and can't find anything to eat etc, then they look at their Jew neighbours and see them having money they start hating on them. People like Hitler used this very well, blaming every economical problem on the Jews and make them look like stealing from good old hard working people. The religion aspect is just a detail to give the hate some kind of justification and mystery.

Today's conflict though has nothing to do with anti-semitisim because those people in Palestine never hated Jews...well until they mass migrated there in 20th century and created their own state which uses apartheid-like discrimations against them and still building new settlements in their lands.

Also you can't expect a logical train of thought from organisations like Hamas which feeds off hate and war.

Last edited by Farinal; November 21st, 2012 at 02:24 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:45 PM   #48
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Like i mentioned in other posts some of my acnestors came in 1865. Does that mean that when zionists started to emigrate they were anti-zionist?
Wow, wow wow, please hold on your dead horses

Can't understand your point here; care to elaborate?

How exactly are your "acnestors" or anti-Zionism related at all with the careful statistics presented by yours truly here from the Jewish Virtual Library???

Please remember my only question to you was just [sic]
Quote:
"Exactly how many Jews were there before the Balfour Declaration (1917)?"
No more, no less.

If the answer may be beyond your better knowledge, a simple "I don't know" would have been enough




Just for the record; do you actually understand the posted statistics?

Would you like me to explain them to you?

Are you aware of any contrary evidence?

Would you be so kind to post it here?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by sylla1; November 21st, 2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:49 PM   #49

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Yes,

I do not get that one either. How does one connect to the other?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 04:19 PM   #50

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so all in all can we say that they dismissed all the alternatives and stubbornly settled onto today's lands?
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