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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:09 PM   #51
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For a Jewish Majority in Jerusalem see

Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

Only an absolute Majority in 1932 by these figures. Yes a substainal oart of the population, but a majoirty before massive Zionists immigration not on these figures.


On the buying of 'waste' Land by Zionists according to Ottoman law, waste land would have been property of Government not private land lords, and records clearly show that Zionist land purchases were from private land lords, and in in the most fertile areas (this sort of makes sense as the fertile areas around the coastal plain would have been the most economical monetarised in that the economy moved over to money rather than more traditional land holding practices.) The Orange Industry is case of rapid and substainal economic growth entirely by native Palestinians going on before/during the Zionist arrival, to ascribe every and all economical development to the Zionists in clearly wrong, and the growth was occurring in the areas the Zionists were settling in, because of the economical advantages and redevelopment of the coastal areas in general.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:26 PM   #52

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
There were many options offered to the Zionists but Palestine trumped them for a few reasons:

1) Jews were historically tied to it, so they would risk leaving everything they owned for it more so than any other place in the world (except America and maybe Canada). People needed to be convinced to move to Palestine because it wasn't exactly an ideal place to live (though no other option was either).

2) The location was the best. The Pampas, Siberia, West Texas, Central Australia, ect. were all in the middle of nowhere, which made establishing a country impractical. Also, people were probably offended by the implication that Europeans wanted them as far away as possible.

3) Palestine had a substantial Jewish population already. Most of it was concentrated in Jerusalem, but Jews were a majority there long before Zionism emerged. Nowhere else had extant Jewish populations.

4) They thought the locals wouldn't mind. Herzl writes frequently about how the local Arabs would be enthused to have new employment opportunities and economic development in their land. He also thought that Jews could contribute economically to the Ottoman Empire. At the time, the land being sold by the Arabs was often uninhabited and owned by absentee landlords, so dislocation of Arabs wasn't thought to be an issue.

Looking back it seems like Palestine was the best option, and that the Zionists made the right choice going there. It was the naivety of the Zionists and the spread of European anti-Semitism around the Arab world that made Zionism into a problem, not the establishment of a Jewish homeland.
I think you're assuming we're naiive to believe that !
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:31 PM   #53

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Nothing of that sort. The main reason for the anti-semitism in the history of Europe is the banker Jews. You see banker Jews tend to be quite rich and every once in a while a country gets in a bad financial situation, the citizens become poor and can't find anything to eat etc, then they look at their Jew neighbours and see them having money they start hating on them. People like Hitler used this very well, blaming every economical problem on the Jews and make them look like stealing from good old hard working people. The religion aspect is just a detail to give the hate some kind of justification and mystery.

Today's conflict though has nothing to do with anti-semitisim because those people in Palestine never hated Jews...well until they mass migrated there in 20th century and created their own state which uses apartheid-like discrimations against them and still building new settlements in their lands.

Also you can't expect a logical train of thought from organisations like Hamas which feeds off hate and war.
You mention one of the results : Reckless Hamas

and the reason above it !

Hamas wouldn't exist if that simply did happen...
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:29 AM   #54

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This was an interesting article about Israeli-Arabs. Not Palestinians.


What Does It Feel Like To Be an Israeli-Arab?

Quote:
Answer by an Anonymous User:

I am an Israeli Arab. Conflicted and stressful are two of the easier words to pick. Where do I start?

Growing up in an environment that by definition embraces inequality by design is uncomfortable. It is not the naming that bothers, but the implementation and expectations people set. "This is a Jewish Country!" people would argue when faced with questions about equality.

It's 2012, and not a single mainstream party in Israel would call out for defining the state as the state of all its citizens. Attempts to do so by groups or parties would shun them into the "radical" bucket.

Having people disagree with you that equality is a basic right is highly demoralizing.

Setting the stage: Arabs make for about 18 percent to 20 percent of Israel's citizenry.

Looking at more practical policies that affect Arab society in Israel:

Lack of Urbanization
Since the formation of Israel, more than1,900 Jewish-majority community settlements (small towns) were formed and numerous modern cities.

No modern [mixed] city has been built with the Arab community in mind. The main basic barriers for adopting cities who are mainly designated for Jews:
Arab schools, as the school systems is separate by default (Most Jews and Arabs learn in separate schools).
Difficulty in building Arab cultural hubs: cafes, community centers, youth bodies (Without critical mass, there's little financial sense to open any of those).
Arab society is predominantly living in 100+ year old villages. While the infrastructure was upgraded years ago (electricity, Internet, etc.), they are still 100+ year old villages. They are not subjected to a structured plan to urbanize. This leads to horrid in-society effects:
Significantly more religious with no alternative in sight
Clan mentality remains a dominant factor, as the surrounding habitat does not allow for a city-life experiences: More privacy, families are spread out in more distant areas, multistory buildings that boost the family vs. community ratio.
Due to No. 2, municipality level politics are rigged: one clan votes to Clan No. 1, the rest to Clan No. 2, who in turn slice the cake to the whomever voted them in.
No. 3 makes it nearly impossible to actually fix problems in a village.
Lack of adequate infrastructure prevents modernization. This is especially evident when contrasted with Arabs, especially students, living in Israeli cities like Haifa. Life tyles are no different than their peers in London, Tel Aviv, ir Munich.

Education is a big one. Recent articles in mainstream Israeli media show 20 percent to 37 percent less investment in the education budget reaching Arab students.

This obviously leads to a chain reaction: 28 percent of Arab high-school students graduate (eligible for Bagrut), compared with 51 percent in the Jewish sector

Eleven percent of university undergrads are Arab, 9 percent of graduates, 7 percent of masters students, 3 percent of Ph.D students, and 2 percent of university academic staff.

This leads to vast socio-economic gaps between the two communities, leading to higher crime rates and lowered aspirations and hopes.

In the booming high tech industry in Israel, less than 4 percent of the workforce is Arab.

On the other hand, there's alienation:
Arabs in Israel are not part of the public discourse on how the country is and will be shaped.
Polls in recent years have stopped polling Arabs, specifically mentioning that polls reflect Jewish opinion.
Political parties in the government are elected based on slogans such as "No Loyalty, No Citizenship," suggesting to the Jewish majority that the Arab citizens are somehow collectively not loyal.
Different periods of time brought media onslaught on all popular Israeli TV, repeating mantras like "Arabs are ticking bombs" or "Israeli Arab leadership is inciting hatred and radicalism." All carried out by mainstream, in-government politicians. No other than the current prime minister has called Israeli Arabs "The real demographic threat."
Racism in its purest forms. Remarks on superiority are common. Phrases like "We're not like that, we're not Arabs" are thrown in any negative context.
Every time there's confrontation with an Arab country or militia, we're pitted with the "Others," and racism levels spike for a while
The occupation of Palestinians. We're by definition Palestinians, and folks from the West Bank and Gaza are literally family to many. Seeing them living under military occupation, while we live in relative freedom, mixes feelings even more.
Leading city municipality/community leadership in Israel openly call for racist behavior such as not renting or selling flats to Arabs (Carmiel as an example).

On the flip side. Life is relatively comfortable for the Arab middle class and higher.

Those who meet the socioeconomic bar cannot help but enjoy access to good public health care, purchasing power that satisfies most ordinary people, and decent-paying jobs, even for the working class.

Life is super safe compared to the region. Basic freedoms are mostly upheld by the law and physical attacks due to racism seldom occur. For the more fortunate among us, higher education and hard work are fantastic tools to get ahead into a better life.

Do excuse me for posting this anonymously, as life opportunities in Israel become vastly more limited for me if my name is Googled up and this post is surfaced.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:40 AM   #55

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farinal View Post
Nothing of that sort. The main reason for the anti-semitism in the history of Europe is the banker Jews. You see banker Jews tend to be quite rich and every once in a while a country gets in a bad financial situation, the citizens become poor and can't find anything to eat etc, then they look at their Jew neighbours and see them having money they start hating on them. People like Hitler used this very well, blaming every economical problem on the Jews and make them look like stealing from good old hard working people. The religion aspect is just a detail to give the hate some kind of justification and mystery.
Correct, probably I can add to say that lords, bishops, dukes ... local powerful families, acted towards the Jews like the French monarchies [followed by Church and other] acted towards the Templars.

They used a negative image of the Jews in general to spread it among the population to generate "urban legends". And just the pogroms during the first Crusade in German lands shows how these "urban legends" were a good motivation to push the people [better if warriors] to erase a competitive community [not controlled by the powers of that time].

Quote:
Today's conflict though has nothing to do with anti-semitisim because those people in Palestine never hated Jews...well until they mass migrated there in 20th century and created their own state which uses apartheid-like discrimations against them and still building new settlements in their lands.

Also you can't expect a logical train of thought from organisations like Hamas which feeds off hate and war.
The "discrimination" towards Arab is not that evident, as for I know the Arab citizens of Israel are Israelis like the Jews, the Christians and the others.

Anyway, it's true that we tend not to think to how the deported Palestinians have lived first the arrival of the new mass of Jews [immigrating from all around the world], and then how they lived the deportation and how they feel about the desire to go back to the land of their fathers.

Obvious, if these Palestinian aspirations find a megaphone in organizations like Hamas, they simply play the game of the Israeli right [simplifying I could use this thought "if on the other side there are terrorists, we are justified to use the force, to build wall, to impose limitations to Palestinians and Arabs in general ..."].
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:57 AM   #56

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It was obvious that Levant was the worst option for Jews.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 01:33 AM   #57

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The history of Jews in Europe is pretty complicated. In some places and times the rulers protected them but in others they persecuted and/or expelled them. Was the violence against Jews because of the Church or was it more spontaneous mob violence? I seem to remember the Church was against it but I could be wrong.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 01:47 AM   #58

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Originally Posted by antocya View Post
The history of Jews in Europe is pretty complicated. In some places and times the rulers protected them but in others they persecuted and/or expelled them. Was the violence against Jews because of the Church or was it more spontaneous mob violence? I seem to remember the Church was against it but I could be wrong.
Jews were favoured because of the kings who thought they were beneficial for economy increasing trade and welfare.

They were unfavoured by the Church for religious resons.

Historically Turks were smart enough to welcome them
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 01:49 AM   #59

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Well what I was trying to say is that sometimes the persecution against Jews was not directly sponsored by the Church but came from mob violence.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:56 AM   #60

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Originally Posted by antocya View Post
Well what I was trying to say is that sometimes the persecution against Jews was not directly sponsored by the Church but came from mob violence.
A simple search for "Anti-Semitism" in google would show that hatred or persecution was far more profound than mob violance....mostly on religious ground actually.
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