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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:29 AM   #1
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Why did Babylonian Christians not survive like Assyrian Christians


Why did Babylonian Christians not survive like Assyrian Christians?
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Old March 6th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #2
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There ar,e still a few Christians in Iraq, and Iraq includes what was Babylonia.

By "Babylonian Christianity" I suspect you are referring to the Nestorian Church of the East. 2 Main reasons for the decline

a. The areas of the Church of the East all fell under non Christian, mostly Muslim rulers

b. Nestorian beliefs were regarded as heretical by both Orthodx and Catholic Christians. Both Orthodox (Byzantine, Russian) and Catholic (Europe) had countries with rulers that followed their beliefs, and could help out their fellow brethrens that were under Muslim domination. Nestorians could not count on such outside help as Orthodox and Catholics could.

Many Assyrians joined later became associated with the Catholic Church, acknowledging the authority of the Pope in Rome.. While the majority of Catholics (95%) are Roman Catholics, Assyrians represent various "Eastern Rite" Catholic that are slight different from Roman Catholics. For example, priests can marry in many Eastern Rite Catholic churches, like,Assyrians, while Roman Catholic church priest cannot marry and must remain celibate.

I think their association with outside agencies might have helped the Assyrian non Nestorian Christians better to survive than the Church of the East
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Old March 7th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #3
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thanks a very good description as well. The Nestorians did survive in some Mongols and in some parts of India as well but their basic core got lost. Explains well. But are their any Christians living today who are continuous descendents of erstwhile Chrisitians of Babylonian region in Southern Iraq? I am sure they are miniscule minority but are these now falling under Assyrian Church category or some other denomination?
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Old March 7th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #4
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Who are Babylonian Christians??????
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Old March 7th, 2015, 10:03 PM   #5
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Descendents of the Christians of Babylonia under the rule of Sassanids.

Last edited by greatstreetwarrior; March 7th, 2015 at 11:04 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Many Assyrians joined later became associated with the Catholic Church, acknowledging the authority of the Pope in Rome.. While the majority of Catholics (95%) are Roman Catholics, Assyrians represent various "Eastern Rite" Catholic that are slight different from Roman Catholics. For example, priests can marry in many Eastern Rite Catholic churches, like,Assyrians, while Roman Catholic church priest cannot marry and must remain celibate.

I think their association with outside agencies might have helped the Assyrian non Nestorian Christians better to survive than the Church of the East
You are mistaken.

The Iraqi Christians who today call themselves "Assyrian" are descendants of adherents of the Nestorian Church of the East. In the 16th Century, that Church underwent a split into two sects, one of which took the name "Assyrian" and the other "Chaldean".

Both churches still exist today, so in that sense there are still "Babylonian" Christians, in the form of the Chaldean Church. Neither church has any direct connection with the ancient Assyrians or Chaldeans; those were simply names adopted in the 16th Century. In the Ottoman Empire, both sects were included in the Nestorian Millet (Nasturan milleti).

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East]Assyrian Church of the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church]Chaldean Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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Old March 10th, 2015, 03:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mills View Post
You are mistaken.

The Iraqi Christians who today call themselves "Assyrian" are descendants of adherents of the Nestorian Church of the East. In the 16th Century, that Church underwent a split into two sects, one of which took the name "Assyrian" and the other "Chaldean".

Both churches still exist today, so in that sense there are still "Babylonian" Christians, in the form of the Chaldean Church. Neither church has any direct connection with the ancient Assyrians or Chaldeans; those were simBanky names adopted in the 16th Century. In the Ottoman Empire, both sects were included in the Nestorian Millet (Nasturan milleti).

Assyrian Church of the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chaldean Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Actually, the Chaldeans will tell you they aren't Arabs, and they claim descent from the ancient Chaldeans (I.e., Babylonians). A very few of their community still speak a form of Aramaic (Syriac) rather than.Arabic, and Aramaic was the language of the Assyrian Empire, so there is a connection - it is you who are mistaken.

The Chaldeans are associated with the Catholic church, it is called the Chaldean Catholic Church even in your Wikipedia article.

Last edited by Bart Dale; March 10th, 2015 at 04:12 AM.
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Old March 12th, 2015, 10:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Actually, the Chaldeans will tell you they aren't Arabs, and they claim descent from the ancient Chaldeans (I.e., Babylonians). A very few of their community still speak a form of Aramaic (Syriac) rather than.Arabic, and Aramaic was the language of the Assyrian Empire, so there is a connection - it is you who are mistaken.

The Chaldeans are associated with the Catholic church, it is called the Chaldean Catholic Church even in your Wikipedia article.
Nobody takes the Chaldeans seriously. They are Assyrians who decided to become Catholic.
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Old March 13th, 2015, 03:04 AM   #9
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Nobody takes the Chaldeans seriously. They are Assyrians who decided to become Catholic.
Incorrect.

The adherents of the Chaldean Catholic Church were never members of a Church called "Assyrian". Rather, they were members of the Church of the East, which underwent a schism in the 16th century, not over a doctrinal issue, but over an issue of church leadership.

The faction that split from the Church of the East started to call themselves "Assyrian", in order to differentiate themselves from the other faction, which adopted the name "Chaldean".

Eventually the Chaldean Church accepted communion with the Roman Papacy, and hence became the Chaldean Catholic Church.

Assyrian Church of the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
The Assyrian Church of the East (Classical Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪܝܐ), officially the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East[5] Classical Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܩܕܝܫܬܐ ܘܫܠܝܚܝܬܐ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܝ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪܝܐ, ʻIttā Qaddishtā w-Shlikhāitā Qattoliqi d-Madnĕkhā d-Āturāyē), is a Syriac Church historically centered in Assyria, northern Mesopotamia. It is one of the churches that claim continuity with the historical Patriarchate of Seleucia-Ctesiphon – the Church of the East. Unlike most other churches that trace their origins to antiquity, the modern Assyrian Church of the East is not in communion with any other churches, either Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Catholic.

Theologically, the church is associated with the doctrine of Nestorianism, leading to the church, also being known as a "Nestorian Church", though church leadership has at times rejected the Nestorian label, and was already extant some four centuries prior to Nestorius. The church employs the Syriac dialect of the Aramaic language in its liturgy, the East Syrian Rite, which includes three anaphoras, attributed to Saints Addai and Mari, Theodore of Mopsuestia and Nestorius.[6]

The Church of the East developed between the 1st and 3rd centuries AD from the early Assyrian Christian communities in the Assuristan province (Parthian ruled Assyria) of the Parthian Empire, and at its height had spread from its north Mesopotamian heartland to as far as China, Central Asia and India. A dispute over patriarchal succession led to the Schism of 1552, resulting in there being two rival Patriarchs. One of the factions that eventually emerged from this split became the Assyrian Church of the East, while another became the church now known as the Chaldean Catholic Church, originally called The Church of Athura (Assyria) and Mosul, which eventually entered into communion with the Catholic Church, both in continuation from the Church of the East.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East"]Church of the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Quote:
The 2000 work, The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318–1913, offers an explanation in the first chapter:
The terminology used in this study deserves a word of explanation. Until recently the Church of the East was usually called the 'Nestorian' church, and East Syrian Christians were either 'Nestorians' or (after the schism of 1552) by the ethnic and geographic misnomer 'Chaldeans'. During the period covered in this study, the word 'Nestorian' was used both as a term of abuse by those who disapproved of the traditional East Syrian theology, as a term of pride by many of its defenders (including Abdisho of Nisibis in 1318, the Mosul patriarch Eliya X Yohannan Marogin in 1672, and the Qudshanis patriarch Shem'on XVII Abraham in 1842), and as a neutral and convenient descriptive term by others. Nowadays it is generally felt that the term carries a stigma, and students of the Church of the East are advised to avoid its use. In this thesis the theologically neutral adjective 'East Syrian' has been used wherever possible, and the term 'traditionalist' to distinguish the non-Catholic branch of the Church of the East after the schism of 1552. The modern term 'Assyrian', often used in the same sense, was unknown for most of the period covered in this study, and has been avoided.[3]


Last edited by michael mills; March 13th, 2015 at 03:15 AM.
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Old March 16th, 2015, 11:59 PM   #10
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You can ask yourself: how many Assyrians and Chaldeans are there left..
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