Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Middle Eastern and African History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Middle Eastern and African History Middle Eastern and African History Forum - Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and all nations of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:00 AM   #41
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: USA
Posts: 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
Come on man. Civilization simply did not exist outside Europe, India(subcontinent), China and Middle East . In two Americas, all you had was a small land in Andes and then in Mesoamerica while some 40 million sqkm was just barren land full of tribals of stone age many of whom relished human meat. And Australia, Pacific Islands , Borneo were same.

Case of Sub Saharan Africa is different. I agree that Sub Saharans were better than guys listed above but most of them were too primitive.

1. List a single book written in Sub Saharan Africa before 1500 ADs. Note that by this time, all great regions like ME, India, China and Europe had produced thousands of texts. 1000 vs 0.

2. List a single Sub Saharan language having any literature (in written form) before 1700s.

3. List a single SS African kingdom issuing coins with even a bit of standardisation.

4. List a single Sub Saharan 'philosopher' who wrote in contexts not Islamic or Christian.

5. List a single SS religion that exists today in any SS nation and is powerful than Islam or Christianity.


I do not even know how people even think of comparing Romans with Sub Saharans, a tiny nation like Sri Lanka has far greater heritage in literature, philosophy, arts and kingdoms than entire SS Africa put together.
You are a shining example of everything I said in this post. Clearly you didn't even watch the videos in the OP before proceeding with your bigotry. I suggest you do so before commenting again. However I'll humor you nonetheless.

1. List a single book written in Sub Saharan Africa before 1500 ADs. Note that by this time, all great regions like ME, India, China and Europe had produced thousands of texts. 1000 vs 0.
I beg to differ sir: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu_Manuscripts]Timbuktu Manuscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Also check Ethiopia

2. List a single Sub Saharan language having any literature (in written form) before 1700s.
Mali, Songhai, Hausa, Ethiopia and others

3. List a single SS African kingdom issuing coins with even a bit of standardisation.
Ethiopia, Ashante Empire and others

4. List a single Sub Saharan 'philosopher' who wrote in contexts not Islamic or Christian.
Why does it even matter what religion they practiced? Do you think Christianity was a European invention? Historically Christains and Muslims have very aggressively spread their religions throughout the world. Most parts of the world didn't care nearly as much about converts to their religions.

5. List a single SS religion that exists today in any SS nation and is powerful than Islam or Christianity.
Uhh again... what does this have to do with the historical value or history of a nation? Not all of us are religious like you.

Last edited by Kanoro; May 5th, 2015 at 06:14 AM.
Kanoro is offline  
Remove Ads
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:08 AM   #42

Son Of RA's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
From: Universe
Posts: 854

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
There was no such thing as 'Black identity' either except in descriptions of some non black authors who denoted thousands of tribes by a single term based on skin color.
The term black or terms that meant black WERE used in antiquity actually. "Ethiopia" being a term. And also "Sudanese" used by Arabs and others during the medieval period. Meanwhile there was no "Sub-Sahara Africa" thought prior to the 19th century.

But there was a "BLACK" identity back then.
Son Of RA is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:17 AM   #43
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Benin City, Nigeria (originally)
Posts: 1,968

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
Since my point about arts was disputed, I would like our readers to have a look at Sigriya caves in Sri Lanka a UNESCO WH Site. It was built some 1600 years ago and some of paintings are still there despite damp climate of this place.

Click the image to open in full size.

Not as great as Roman paintings but still very impressive coming from 400 CEs. I would be extremely delighted to see something similar from Sub Saharan Africa before 1500 CE.
There are sculptural works of art from before 1500 CE that are more impressive from "sub saharan Africa," but I am a bit curious about why you chose painting specifically and why you chose 1500 CE as the cutoff point.

Last edited by Ighayere; May 5th, 2015 at 06:30 AM.
Ighayere is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:27 AM   #44
Jedi Knight
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Indiana
Posts: 6,161

American History has the same problem
Mike McClure is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #45
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2012
From: Benin City, Nigeria (originally)
Posts: 1,968

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
We can disagree on what constitutes 'civilization' but I am sure that we can agree on fact that a nation with standardised currency and written literature is almost always advanced than one which does not have them. Can you tell me one exception to this rule in comparable time period?
Do you think the Mongols having written literature, such as the Secret History of the Mongols, automatically made them more advanced (culturally or in any other real way) than they had been before they adopted writing?

Were they automatically more advanced than all other non-literate cultures throughout history simply by adopting writing? Did their culture automatically produce things that are valued more highly than all products of non-literate cultures simply by virtue of having literature?

And no I don't agree about the "standardised currency" stuff really. It seems like an arbitrary qualification for what constitutes being advanced.
Ighayere is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:34 AM   #46
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Sri Lanka
Posts: 405

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
There are sculptural works of art from before 1500 CE that are more impressive from "sub saharan Africa," but I am a bit curious about why you chose painting specifically and why you chose 1500 CE as the cutoff point.
Painting was just one of artfields chosen by me, if you want metallic sculptures, architecture etc. I can do that too.

1500 CE is starting time of modern era and most importantly 'achievements' should be bit old. Kenya of todays world is more advanced than Romans, no doubt about it.
Saviour is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:37 AM   #47
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Sri Lanka
Posts: 405

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Of RA View Post
The term black or terms that meant black WERE used in antiquity actually. "Ethiopia" being a term. And also "Sudanese" used by Arabs and others during the medieval period. Meanwhile there was no "Sub-Sahara Africa" thought prior to the 19th century.

But there was a "BLACK" identity back then.
An identity based on color? This is simply amazing Sir.
Saviour is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:50 AM   #48
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Sri Lanka
Posts: 405

Lot of 'ink has been spilled' on what is philosophy. Nagarjuna wrote in second century AD and below is an extract from Stanford Edu

Quote:
In Nāgārjuna's discussion of causation we usually find him investigating a set of alternative ways in which cause and effect could be related. Each of these is subsequently found to be unsatisfactory. As a result Nāgārjuna does not conclude that causation is impossible, but that our understanding of the causal relation must be based on some faulty premiss. This premiss is the presupposition that cause and effect exist with their own svabhāva. What this means is that they are qualitatively distinct, independent objects: first the cause exists without the effect, later the effect can exist without the cause, once the cause has passed out of existence. Apart from being independent of each other, cause and effect are also independent of the cognizing mind. The chain of causes and conditions is something that exists out there in the world, independent of human interests and concerns. Nāgārjuna intends to show that because there is something wrong with all the understandings of causation usually encountered, the difficulty is likely to lie in a mistaken supposition that underlies all of them.

In his most well-known discussion of causation Nāgārjuna distinguishes four ways in which things could be causally be brought about. They could be produced

from themselves, or
from other things, or
from both themselves and from other things, or
from neither.
This is what I would call real stuff. You may disagree violently with him but can not be but impressed by sophistication of his arguments and views on metaphysical aspects. Nothing like this exists in SS Africa till 1500 ADs .

Last edited by Saviour; May 5th, 2015 at 06:54 AM.
Saviour is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:53 AM   #49
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: USA
Posts: 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
No this is not racial, it is geographical. No crops like wheat, rice, maize, sugarcane, cotton, pulses there. No animals like cows, horses or even elephants domesticated. Add to this the fact that arable land was so less and you get what I am saying.

Europe or Asia would have remained same if such conditions existed there. Remember that Sweden too was very primitive before Christianisation and Europeanisation.
Africans did have cattle AND horses domesticated. Cattle were kept on all corners of the continent and horses were found in north, east, and west africa And they DID have cereal crops such as sorghum and millet. Lastly they DID have civilizations, kingdoms, and history. It's this ignorance that lead me to make the OP in the first place and is also this ignorance that compels people to comment on this without even watching the OP videos. They don't even care enough about africa to watchtwo 8 minute videos about it.
Kanoro is offline  
Old May 5th, 2015, 06:58 AM   #50
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Sri Lanka
Posts: 405

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Do you think the Mongols having written literature, such as the Secret History of the Mongols, automatically made them more advanced (culturally or in any other real way) than they had been before they adopted writing?

Were they automatically more advanced than all other non-literate cultures throughout history simply by adopting writing? Did their culture automatically produce things that are valued more highly than all products of non-literate cultures simply by virtue of having literature?

And no I don't agree about the "standardised currency" stuff really. It seems like an arbitrary qualification for what constitutes being advanced.
You are taking extreme examples but I would show the flawed analogy of yours but before this, I must stress that debates can not take place in vacuum. There must be some criteria to judge cultures, otherwise, every culture is same as other so I would like to ask you what are parameters of 'Black African Civilization' on which comparison should be done. List some of them.

I am slightly busy now, will return to debate which so far has been very polite and I thank all of you for this.
Saviour is offline  
Closed Thread

  Historum > World History Forum > Middle Eastern and African History

Tags
blacks, empires, history, kingdoms, slavery



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
American slavery vs Caribbean slavery shivfan American History 45 May 12th, 2017 04:53 AM
Searching for resources analysing the history of slavery leading up to 1900 Americas fredecus Learning History 3 May 31st, 2015 11:01 PM
Blacks and the US Military Qymaen American History 13 February 10th, 2012 06:10 PM
Melanin and Blacks Horus123 New Users 7 November 9th, 2011 09:02 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.