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Middle Eastern and African History Middle Eastern and African History Forum - Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and all nations of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula


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Old May 5th, 2015, 06:58 AM   #51
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Painting was just one of artfields chosen by me, if you want metallic sculptures, architecture etc. I can do that too.

1500 CE is starting time of modern era and most importantly 'achievements' should be bit old. Kenya of todays world is more advanced than Romans, no doubt about it.
Do me a favor and look up the ife heads and benin bronzes. And if you want ancient, look up the nok.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:08 AM   #52
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Painting was just one of artfields chosen by me, if you want metallic sculptures, architecture etc. I can do that too.
I asked because I didn't see why one would assume the artists of every culture would have cared about painting (or about painting humans and other living creatures on walls or other flat surfaces).

But anyway, keeping in mind the context of the thread (which is about "Blacks" rather than just "Subsaharan Africa", as another poster noted), there are ancient paintings from what is now Sudan that you could make comparisons with if you like. However, it seems you really only want to focus on Subsaharan Africa, rather than all of Black Africa, in which case I would agree that there are no great painting traditions throughout most of Subsaharan Africa (Ethiopia being a possible exception), though there is evidence of sculptures being painted in the past. I don't think the issue of painting has too much real significance as far as civilization is concerned though.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:45 AM   #53

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I never said that they aren't allowed to appreciate Nubian history. I actually appreciate it myself. However when Blacks want to claim their history, they usually run straight for Nubia and Egypt (and Zulu to a lesser extent). It's very uncommon that I see them claim West Africa which is rich in history and historically has been home to the most powerful medieval kingdoms in Africa.
We have not been taught anything. I am just learning about African civilization myself. But during my time not even Nubia was mentioned which is why I was trying to get the OP to start from there. And thankfully those like you will in turn direct me to other civilizations
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:50 AM   #54
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And?

Back then there was no such thing as "Sub-Sahara Africa".
EXACTLY! I find it amusing this new make believe term of "sub-Saharan" Africa.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:53 AM   #55
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Do me a favor and look up the ife heads and benin bronzes. And if you want ancient, look up the nok.
Thank You for this suggestion.

Most of Benin bronzes are after 1500 AD, Ife ones are indeed impressive as they are lot earlier.

But I have never denied that these things did not exist in SS Africa, only that they are in no way comparable to rest of Eurasia. I will have to demonstrate this which I am planning to do after some time.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:55 AM   #56

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Unfortunately it is not in sub-Saharan Africa
Most of Niger is technically in the desert but 2 things: (a) the country of Niger is routinely deemed sub-Saharan, politically and (b) it was not sub-saharan when this artwork was created -- indeed, that was during the neolithic subpluvial. Otherwise, see post #51. The artwork I cited is hardly the only work of art in Africa.

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The broad level of generality with which you're defining philosophy is so broad as to render it a meaningless achievement culturally. As you say, "everyone" developed it, no matter how backwards they were as a society... so it tells us nothing helpful about the level of development of SS Africa compared to places like Europe.
You didn't specify any sort, degree or specific ideas of philosophy. You merely used the term by itself, in the abstract, just as I did in response. Now, you appear to be moving the goal posts.

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Sorry it does not match. I was not talking about sculptural art( should I start doing that too?) but about painting. Your failure to show anything comparable actually disappoints me.
I was unaware that paintings alone counted as art.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 07:58 AM   #57
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EXACTLY! I find it amusing this new make believe term of "sub-Saharan" Africa.
Do you also find it amusing that we are told that civilizations are defined by 'color of skin'? What actually is black civilization? I have known Graeco Roman Civilization, Indic Civilization, Maya Civilization, sintic Civilization but never heard of terms like 'Yellow mongoloid civilization' or 'White Civilization'.

We stress on SS Africa because most of 'blacks' live there , conspiracy theories on North Africa notwithstanding.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 08:05 AM   #58
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I was unaware that paintings alone counted as art.
It is irrelevant whether you are aware or unaware. My point was that nothing like Sigriya frescoes existed in SS Africa before 1500 AD and I do not see any proper rebuttal to that, all we see is cultural nihilism that 'painting does not matter'. Seriously, painting is one of most serious arts and shows creativity of humans at its best. If you wish to say that painting is unimportant, you have atleast lot of mullahs to support you.

Anyway, I have promised that I would demonstrate my point very soon.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 08:11 AM   #59
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You are taking extreme examples but I would show the flawed analogy of yours but before this, I must stress that debates can not take place in vacuum. There must be some criteria to judge cultures, otherwise, every culture is same as other so I would like to ask you what are parameters of 'Black African Civilization' on which comparison should be done. List some of them.

I am slightly busy now, will return to debate which so far has been very polite and I thank all of you for this.
I do not think that is an extreme example. I look forward to reading your explanation of why the analogy is flawed.

The point of the comparison is not to deny that having writing can elevate a civilization to greater heights but just to point out that there is more to having a civilization than having writing. If not, then we would be forced to adopt some bizarre conclusions such as:

"The Mongols were more civilized and/or had a civilization while the Inca did not, since the Mongols had writing and the Inca did not. There was a Mongol civilization, but there was never an Inca civilization."

I am not under the impression that every culture is the same. My point was not to "reduce" all cultures to having the same level of achievement at all times in all areas of achievement. I was just addressing the idea of what "civilization" really is, not whether certain civilizations were or were not more advanced in certain areas. That certain civilizations were more advanced than others throughout or at certain points in history is not an idea that I find inherently objectionable or something, but I think the disparity in advancement between certain cultures (especially certain African cultures vs. certain other cultures from other parts of the world) has often been exaggerated.

Last edited by Ighayere; May 5th, 2015 at 08:17 AM.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 08:16 AM   #60

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It is irrelevant whether you are aware or unaware. My point was that nothing like Sigriya frescoes existed in SS Africa before 1500 AD and I do not see any proper rebuttal to that, all we see is cultural nihilism that 'painting does not matter'. Seriously, painting is one of most serious arts and shows creativity of humans at its best. If you wish to say that painting is unimportant, you have atleast lot of mullahs to support you.

Anyway, I have promised that I would demonstrate my point very soon.
You will demonstrate nothing but narrow-mindedness. For one thing, you can't prove that "painting...shows creativity of humans at its best" because that's a purely subjective opinion, nor can you prove the "Sigriya frescoes" are aesthetically superior to any other work of art for the same reason.
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