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Natural Environment How Human History has been impacted by the environment, science, nature, geography, weather, and natural phenomena


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Old December 9th, 2017, 07:50 AM   #21

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Some inspiring pics

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Old December 9th, 2017, 08:08 AM   #22

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The relationship between wolves and ravens is a true symbiosis rather than a relationship where one species benefits and the other doesn't. While the ravens do indeed benefit from wolves cracking open a carcass for them, ravens have been observed leading wolves to injured animals or carcasses. That ravens also lead wolves to meals is likely why the wolves tolerate ravens sharing in the feast, something they would not do for other scavenging animals. It's a partnership between the two species and a fascinating one.
Yes, though they can and do live without the other. For instance before the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone, ravens at times used coyotes as their "can openers", or more often just got by. That they are also documented leading cougars to humans shows to me that they are consciously using other species for their benefit, and that, primarily wolves, also benefit, is a just a by-product. I come to that analysis because of the ravens mobility, they actively go out searching either for wolves already hunting, or for something dead, dying or feeble, like us, that they can lead the wolves to. The wolves just go about the business of being a wolf, and if they get led to prey by a raven, well, all well and good. So in that way I don't see it as a fully two way relationship as it's the ravens that get this all going, and because they consciously want to. Wolves of course are not short of brains, but are way behind ravens.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #23

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BTW, how exactly does the raven make the wolf or the cougar hunt for it or open a carcass for it. Appreciate a further elaboration on these. Thanks.
The ravens will know about the wolf pack, or packs, in the territory they inhabit, and they have been seen to go out on patrol to find them and see if they are hunting, if so, they follow. The wolves do not howl to alert the ravens that they are hunting, they just get on with it and likely without a single thought passing their minds about ravens. We can see this patrolling behaviour in other corvids, crows and rooks primarily, where they have learnt since the invention of the automobile to do a dawn patrol along roads for breakfast.

Ravens will also patrol looking for prey, and when they find something suitable, dead or still living, then as they already know where their local wolves are, fly off to them and call them and lead them to the prey. Here is the big difference between their behaviours, as the wolves are otherwise passive in this until urged by the ravens to hunt for what the ravens want. Corvids evolved about 14 million years ago, long before wolves, so they must be the originators of this symbiosis, and for all we know began "training" wolves as the wolves evolved. An interesting thought, but I think going into waters that are very deep and murky.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 05:16 PM   #24
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It makes perfect sense, crows and ravens are among the smartest documented birds out there and some of the smartest animals outside of mammals. They are known to form complex relationships with other animals and humans. In Japan they tend to use cars as can openers, it really depends on the environment they're in. That alone shows their ability to use complex tools to get what they want.


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Old December 9th, 2017, 06:06 PM   #25
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I'm with those who think the master-pet relationship is largely symbiotic for humans. Companionship, protection, entertainment. I have a social network of people whose last names I don't know because a dog is a conversational entrée with anyone.

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Would an historian call an impi a legion or a Satrap a Bashaw?
Might as well call a Bordeaux a claret.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 05:53 PM   #26

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I'm with those who think the master-pet relationship is largely symbiotic for humans. Companionship, protection, entertainment. I have a social network of people whose last names I don't know because a dog is a conversational entrée with anyone.



Might as well call a Bordeaux a claret.
A Bordeaux IS a claret (at least to the English). The French despise the term.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:19 PM   #27
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It makes perfect sense, crows and ravens are among the smartest documented birds out there and some of the smartest animals outside of mammals.
Some folks say that after a nuclear war the only survivors will be cockroaches.

My money's on crows.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:32 PM   #28

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The ravens will know about the wolf pack, or packs, in the territory they inhabit, and they have been seen to go out on patrol to find them and see if they are hunting, if so, they follow. The wolves do not howl to alert the ravens that they are hunting, they just get on with it and likely without a single thought passing their minds about ravens. We can see this patrolling behaviour in other corvids, crows and rooks primarily, where they have learnt since the invention of the automobile to do a dawn patrol along roads for breakfast.
LOL. So that is where your name derives from. Well, not much different from seagulls trailing a ship for tidbits. Except that seagulls don't make sailors do the fishing for them.

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It makes perfect sense, crows and ravens are among the smartest documented birds out there and some of the smartest animals outside of mammals. They are known to form complex relationships with other animals and humans. In Japan they tend to use cars as can openers, it really depends on the environment they're in. That alone shows their ability to use complex tools to get what they want.
Kind of a bit like using a pile driver to drive a nail, but WTH, as long as it works.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:40 PM   #29

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Well, at least I know not to mess with a crow by now. I kind of tried to shoo away a noisy couple of them, from a tree near my home below which there's a bus stop, some time back. Partly becos I had seen one pecking on a baby dove earlier, which it had perhaps stolen from the mother's nest, feeding on it while it was still alive.

And then later on, for a good several weeks, I kept getting hassled by one crow, maybe two, every time I stood there waiting for the bus. They'd like make a swoop on me, and then like turn away at the last moment.

Cud be the same two crows having a bad axe to grind with me.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #30

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Yes, though they can and do live without the other. For instance before the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone, ravens at times used coyotes as their "can openers", or more often just got by. That they are also documented leading cougars to humans shows to me that they are consciously using other species for their benefit, and that, primarily wolves, also benefit, is a just a by-product.
You're more or less saying that the cougars wud then be attacking the humans for food, and the ravens will subsequently be joining in with the feeding. OMG, that is badass, man. Absolute badass.

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I come to that analysis because of the ravens mobility, they actively go out searching either for wolves already hunting, or for something dead, dying or feeble, like us, that they can lead the wolves to. The wolves just go about the business of being a wolf, and if they get led to prey by a raven, well, all well and good. So in that way I don't see it as a fully two way relationship as it's the ravens that get this all going, and because they consciously want to. Wolves of course are not short of brains, but are way behind ravens.
I wud imagine that the wolves in this case wud eventually learn, by a kind of acquired reflex, that ravens exhorting them out means food on the table, so to speak. Just like Pavlov's bell finally meant meat to his dog.
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