Comet

One of the big debates amongst Renaissance/Reformation scholars is the importance of the Renaissance in relation to the Reformation movement. I'm one to believe that without the ideas of the Renaissance the Reformation would have begun much later than the 16th Century. Other historians believe the Church was in such a decline that the Reformation was inevitable.
What do you guys and gals think? Do you have a Reform movement in the 16th Century without the influence of the Reniassance?

CelticBard

I think the development of town life, the consequent plague, and the rebirth of European culture through Universities and amazingly talented "Renaissance Men" with their great works brought about the Reformation. The religious folk were basically forced to take a step back and think about where religion was going, but now the indulgences in Rome were getting out of control, resulting in the outraged Martin Luther who wanted to reform the church, but ended up starting a new sect. John Calvin was a bad man. Think if Protestants had never broken away, would there have been more wars between Europeans, less, or would it stay the same?

Tancred

Just out of curiosity, how was Calvin a "bad man"?


Tancred

CelticBard

How wasn't he? He had so many people burned at the stake and murdered for not being a Calvinist. Remember Calvin was the one who started "Predestination." If you're rich, you're rich because God loves you, if you're poor, you're poor because God hates you. It's kind of the antithesis to what Jesus is recorded as saying the Bible.

Breth

Calvin never started that, at least not to the world. Many earlier religions believed that the rich were favored by the gods and such and that the poor were supoosed to take care of them and the gods land.

I would bet there were earlier predestination people. Though they may not have been as famous as Calvin or not as religous.

The Catholics killed far more then Calvin did. Are Catholics bad? Spanish Inquisition for example. Witch burnings, many were in Germany, also most religions do start out radical.

By the way, I said "Yes"

I think the renewing the past art and such lead more people to read and imagine, thuse realizing what was being said and done wasn't really what was written else where or shouldnt be done.

Comet

Actually, Wyclif had a little predestination in his theology as well. Predestination was well documented throughout the medieval period and I think even Augustine has predestination in theology.....Calvin just put more emphasis on predestination in his theology.

I would'nt say Calvin was a bad man.....in fact, I would probably say John Knox was worse than Calvin.

Tancred

I'm not a expert on Calvin, but I'm sure he was a flawed man and a product of the times. It is easy to see how Catholic corruption and state-sanctioned violence towards the reformed religions could cause extreme measures from the Calvinists. At its high point there were an estimated 2 million followers of the reformed church in France. So certainly there must have been some appeal to Calvinism.

Tancred

Comet

The way I see it, it was a much better option to be Calvinist than to be apart of a corrupt Catholic Church. Calvinism does have its benefits. Probably one of the major benefits of Calvinism was that people lived amongst a community of believers. By community of believers I mean not necessarily Church, but within the community. When an entire city worships in the same way; kinda like Geneva at the time of Calvin, it tends to bring people together. Acceptance was a key ingredient to Calvinism, particularly with the religious chaos of the time. Of course, there is a major down side to all of this....if there was an individual who did not abide by the community rules they were usually treated very harshly.....almost like a heretic. Calvin was one of the individuals who treated those individuals harshly.

heikstheo

One of the ideas of Renaissance Humanism was to go to the original sources in the original languages. Once theological scholars started reading the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek, this might have the potential to yield some interesting new interpretations that might not have occurred to someone who knows the Bible only in Latin.

Comet

This was very important to the Renaissance and it did bring new interpretations. There is no doubt that these new interpretations had a significant impact on the decline of the Church from the 14th century until the Reformation.