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Old August 28th, 2016, 02:58 PM   #31

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Originally Posted by Tuthmosis III View Post


At first glance, this may sound "whiny" as a justification (not meant at all as a reflection on you personally, Jake10!), but the point is people change, and perspectives on the past change. Moreover, though difficult for us history-conscious people to accept, present needs are as legitimate as preservation of a sense of the past. So the counter-question is also important: what makes a historical monument too sacrosanct to ever come down?

I don't think there can be an absolute answer to these questions. But the history-conscious can examine motives. Moving or dismantling a memorial should be accompanied by thorough word and picture documentation of where it stood and what it was meant to signify to the people who built it. If not done in this spirit, an attempt to erase history can be suspected and opposed on that basis.
It may not be an attempt to erase history, but rather an attempt to get over a bad experience. Much the same way as a person may throw away pictures of a person they've had a bad relationship with, a community may tear down a monument to make getting over a bad chapter.

This, of course, may not be unanimous, as, even today, we can find people in USA who would like to have slavery. But, a monument symbolizing slavery could result in blood shed, so, despite being part of history, the well being of society and the opposition by a majority would justify tearing it down.

Still, I agree that documentation of the dismantling should be conducted.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
At the end of the day it really just is a monument. If people are that bothered by it then they need to rethink their priorities in life.
If you tear down a monument it is almost the same as revisionism, trying to rewrite or erase the past and pretend it didn't happen. News flash for everyone, reality does not function this way.
I understand your POV, and I think we pretty much agree.

I'm not talking about ancient monuments.

What I have in mind are the thousands of little "monuments" (statues, statuettes, architectural flourishes, symbols and etc.) that are left over after some of the modern dictatorships that we have seen fall.

Of course, we don't want to tear them all down because I think most people would see some historical value to them. However, I can understand how thousands of these things all over a city (Stalingrad, Berlin, Baghdad and etc.) would be too much for a freely emancipated people to bear.

I remember when Hussein fell and I remember the images of the Iraqis tearing down a statue of him. I can't fault them at all for that. If I was there I honestly believe that I would have found a sledgehammer and gone to town on the first Saddam Hussein monument I found.

I don't think it would have been fair to ask the people in Baghdad to not touch these symbols of repression and heartache.

Also, there is a cost with maintaining many of these items so economics will come into play as well.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 04:20 PM   #33

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I personally don't think it is ever justified to destroy human monuments, no matter how distasteful the history may be.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 05:42 PM   #34
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I personally don't think it is ever justified to destroy human monuments, no matter how distasteful the history may be.
I think we need some clarification between "monuments" and "propaganda artifacts." Of course, I realize the process of delineating those items could get tricky.

OTOH, no ancient sites or monuments should be destroyed like those at Palmyra.

I have a suspicion that all of us are closer in our opinions than the posts might indicate.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 05:44 PM   #35

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Click the image to open in full size.

On a mountain above the village of Golspie, in far northern Scotland, there's 'the Mannie' - a hundred-foot tall sculpture of the first Duke of Sutherland, notorious for his part in some of the most violent Highland Clearances. There've been scores of graffiti incidents and numerous attempts to topple it. Locally, though, it's just kind of there. A little controversial, but not nearly as much as it was ten years ago, and likewise ten years before that. Such is the way all these 'questionable' monuments go. Best leave them: no use sacrificing permanent lessons to temporary whims.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 07:52 PM   #36

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Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
Going to say never. Trying to destroy monuments is practically an attempt to destroy history. What you can do is move it to another place or put it in a museum.
Like it or not, we have demolished buildings for newer buildings in the city I live in.
It is a city that is hardly 100 years young!
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:19 PM   #37

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There are people who want to blow up Stone Mt. and Mt. Rushmore...radical feminists hate the Statue of Liberty, while my personal buggerboo is Jackson's statue in New Orleans. What he did to Native Americans. If we removed every offensive piece of art there would be nothing. And there is always a backlash to politically motivated destruction. And it never goes away. If everyone got their wish and the monuments to things we don't like were brought down...in fifty years there would be a movement to find something else to blame.

Course if you want to pull down Jackson...let me know.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 03:48 PM   #38
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When they are monuments to the Lost Cause, or were erected to signify defiance to the civil rights' movement. Some of the monuments to the Confederacy in the south have controversial histories, and shouldn't be mourned if they get moved or scrapped in the future.
There is a park in downtown San Antonio called Travis Park. There is a tall column in that park with a stature on it. Curiously, it is not a statue of William Barret Travis, one of the Alamo Defenders and the namesake of the park, but of a Confederate soldier. Not very long ago, the city sent in crews to remove this statue and did so at night. They saved the statue for possible relocation to a museum or to a Confederate cemetery, of which we have one in San Antonio.

I believe this statue was erected a good fifty or so years after the end of the Civil War. I agree with those who find the statue inappropriate and insulting to our black citizens and applaud its removal. No matter how one regards the Civil War, there is no doubt in my mind that by attacking the North and killing several hundred thousands of its soldiers, the South committed an egregious act of treason against the United States.

Responding to those who try to deflect with arguments that George Washington was also a slaveowner, or that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, one only needs to remind those folks that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson fought to create the United States whereas the likes of Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee sought to destroy the United States.

Such arguments only have the purpose to throw dust in our faces by missing the point. There are no statues in this country to Benedict Arnold, another traitor to the Republic. In my opinion, the statues must come down. Put them in museums or cemeteries, but take them out of our public spaces.

QED

Last edited by royal744; October 31st, 2017 at 04:12 PM.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 06:13 PM   #39

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Originally Posted by janusdviveidis View Post
I am very proud of solution for this problem in Lithuania. A lot of soviet monuments were collected in "Park-Museum". It was done by private individual and at the moment this project is very successful, foreign tourists love it and locals don't have to deal with Lenin statue in every single town.


Lauko ekspozicija ? Gr?to parkas

"The exposition, consisting of 86 statues by 46 different sculptors, is organized into spheres. Each of the statues features a Soviet or socialist activist, many of them ethnic Lithuanians. The Totalitarian Sphere features sculptures of the main Communist leaders and thinkers, including Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, and Karl Marx. The Terror Sphere is dedicated to sculptures of founders of the Communist Party of Lithuania (Zigmas Aleksa-Angarietis, Vincas Mickevičius-Kapsukas) and officers of the Red Army (Feliksas Baltušis-Žemaitis, Ieronim Uborevich). It also has a sculpture of Felix Dzerzhinsky, the organizer of the Red Terror."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%ABtas_Park

P.S. When possible historical sites should never be destroyed.
How then will future historians interpret this I wonder?
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Old December 27th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Space Shark View Post
By that logic, there should be a lot more Hitler statues in Germany.
Let’s try and be logical here, folks: history, like the past, can never be destroyed.
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