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Old November 5th, 2016, 09:35 PM   #11

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Originally Posted by Asherman View Post
OP, what makes you think that today's youth has such a craving for death? Is it the rise in suicide rates made so much of in the media? That sells advertising, but the reality is that the number of suicides is very low. It may be the case that today's youth view suicide as a reasonable option to escape teenage angst and social adjustments that can be very psychologically painful.

I was in the Class of '58 in a small Southwestern town. At the fiftieth Reunion, I believe there were no less than six that we were known to have taken their own lives. All were adults, and most seemed to have really reached the "bottom" before checking out. No one consciously committed suicide while in High School, and if they had it would have been known throughout the County before the end of the day. A family suicide, any suggestion of insanity, unwed pregnancy, or malicious mischief was an assault on the values and standards of that time. It was easier for a depressed and despondent teenager to just "go away". Leave all your troubles behind, and find loving acceptance elsewhere.

Nonsense, of course. Wherever you go, there you are. So becoming an adult was an early test of character. Some made the hurdle, and others didn't. Mostly, youth got jobs and discovered that education was more than grades. We learned to how to work with others to achieve goals, and to appreciate the freedoms that come with a few well-earned dollars in the pocket. Want more? Then work harder, or smarter.

Adolescence is a very difficult time and transition. Back in the Day, society may have been better equipped to soften the suffering involved, but maybe not. It seems to me a great leap to assume that today's youth is under much greater pressure than adolescents were sixty years ago.
Being "twenty at heart" doesn't mean I don't tell my personal experience.
Partially due to fortune and relative easy school environments, I don't experience bullying and violence much at school; on the other hand, I heard on the news about rampant bullying at schools today.
I was never a top student per se (except perhaps in primary school).
In Chinese it would be 既非學霸,亦非學渣,學習中上,其餘平平 (I was neither a top student or a struggling one; my study was above average and otherwise average).
My family's move to Canada rendered university graduation possible, but my current works have nothing to do with my study.
Are things really today worse than it was from 1980s to early 2000s?
Can we explain all the nostalgias about the 1950s and earlier time?
I recommend posters on this thread to read Stephanie Coontz's books:
The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap
(I just adopt this title quite a bit: We really want to know the Way It Really Were, but can we?)
The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms with America's Changing Family
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Old November 6th, 2016, 04:24 AM   #12

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Being "twenty at heart" doesn't mean I don't tell my personal experience.
Partially due to fortune and relative easy school environments, I don't experience bullying and violence much at school; on the other hand, I heard on the news about rampant bullying at schools today.
I was never a top student per se (except perhaps in primary school).
In Chinese it would be 既非學霸,亦非學渣,學習中上,其餘平平 (I was neither a top student or a struggling one; my study was above average and otherwise average).
My family's move to Canada rendered university graduation possible, but my current works have nothing to do with my study.
Are things really today worse than it was from 1980s to early 2000s?
Can we explain all the nostalgias about the 1950s and earlier time?
I recommend posters on this thread to read Stephanie Coontz's books:
The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap
(I just adopt this title quite a bit: We really want to know the Way It Really Were, but can we?)
The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms with America's Changing Family
Yes, this is a changing time for some societies, but, while painful, people adapt to such changes in time. In many countries in the world, people strive to be able to put food on the table every day, and they feel it is a real accomplishment to buy a car. In places like America and UK, many people did not grow up knowing that way of life, and whey they face aspects of it, they have trouble dealing with it. Yet, in poor countries, people find happiness even though they don't have that much. I think people in America and Britain people will learn to find happiness in the changing world as time goes by, but it will be a challenge.
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Old November 6th, 2016, 05:27 AM   #13
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One of the newer theories of suicide says that a suicide requires both depression, which provides the desire to die, and capacity for violence, which provides the ability to kill one's self. Under this model a failed suicide attempt is the result of depression without the necessary capacity for violence - the person wants to die but they are not able to go through with it.

The OP or one of the subsequent posters mentioned that female suicides are rising. That might account for most of the increase. Men might be killing themselves at the same or a similar rate but with the added women we get a higher total. Traditionally most of the failed suicide attempts are women and under the above model this could be explained by women lacking the capacity for violence. As society progresses and the barriers between men and women break down, perhaps women are also becoming more violent.

The OP presupposes that people are more depressed today than in the past. This might be true, but it might also be true that people are more violent today. It would be interesting to look at the number of suicide attempts (successful + unsuccessful attempts) over time. Successful suicides are rising but what if the number of attempts is holding steady? ie, the number of failed attempts could be failing because people are more violent. (a quick check on the internet says that these numbers don't exist - no one tracks suicide attempts.)

Last edited by Chlodio; November 6th, 2016 at 05:29 AM.
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Old November 6th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #14

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Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
One of the newer theories of suicide says that a suicide requires both depression, which provides the desire to die, and capacity for violence, which provides the ability to kill one's self. Under this model a failed suicide attempt is the result of depression without the necessary capacity for violence - the person wants to die but they are not able to go through with it.

The OP or one of the subsequent posters mentioned that female suicides are rising. That might account for most of the increase. Men might be killing themselves at the same or a similar rate but with the added women we get a higher total. Traditionally most of the failed suicide attempts are women and under the above model this could be explained by women lacking the capacity for violence. As society progresses and the barriers between men and women break down, perhaps women are also becoming more violent.

The OP presupposes that people are more depressed today than in the past. This might be true, but it might also be true that people are more violent today. It would be interesting to look at the number of suicide attempts (successful + unsuccessful attempts) over time. Successful suicides are rising but what if the number of attempts is holding steady? ie, the number of failed attempts could be failing because people are more violent. (a quick check on the internet says that these numbers don't exist - no one tracks suicide attempts.)
Some excellent points here. Yes, perhaps the level of aggression has increased. It would be good to see some studies on the lever of aggression among modern women and what the effects of that are.
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Old November 6th, 2016, 05:27 PM   #15

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Some excellent points here. Yes, perhaps the level of aggression has increased. It would be good to see some studies on the lever of aggression among modern women and what the effects of that are.
Some people claim that virtual killings and violence on electronic games desensitize the applications of violence.
Since my turn to Buddhism, I have given up most (if not all) virtual killings.
I have started two threads on violence: one about the United States, and one about Canada, and do people really check them out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake10
Yes, this is a changing time for some societies, but, while painful, people adapt to such changes in time. In many countries in the world, people strive to be able to put food on the table every day, and they feel it is a real accomplishment to buy a car. In places like America and UK, many people did not grow up knowing that way of life, and whey they face aspects of it, they have trouble dealing with it. Yet, in poor countries, people find happiness even though they don't have that much. I think people in America and Britain people will learn to find happiness in the changing world as time goes by, but it will be a challenge.
Perhaps we have raised our expectations of standard of living too much?
For many families in Hong Kong or Eastern Asia, owning an condominium unit of 40 square metre to 80 square metre is considered a major achievement for the middle class; in North America, many people still expect a single family home with front yards and back yards.
In East Asia, driving is considered a luxury; in North America, many people take driving for granted.
These standards are changing, especially in the Greater Toronto Area and the Greater Vancouver Area.
On the other hand, from the life of comfort and luxury to that of relative thrift is difficult.
Let's talk about a few things that are luxurious for most people:
1) Single family houses? In much of the world, many families would never dream of owning single family houses.
2) Automobiles? They may be necessary for many North Americans, but should our public transit system improve?
3) Extra electronic devices? Most families still have televisions, but personal computers and the Internet increasingly take over the previous function of TVs. Smart TVs are still way less convenient than desktop computers. My user name is VHS, but the current VHS (video home system) is increasingly the Internet.
4) Unnecessary habit of collection or hoarding? Most of us in the developed world hold too many items anyway. I keep a small collection of audio CDs, but from time to time, I give away the ones that I hardly listen. Yes, my home has a large collection of recorded VHS tapes.
Just remember, there are always spaces to cut back and still has an envious standard of living!
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Old November 6th, 2016, 09:31 PM   #16

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Because they have never lived in Vietnam as a poor ass bitch who has to study and work like a horse to enjoy the happy little meals that could be barely considered as foods in other countries and KFC is considered as luxury food and lives in a small apartment with no hope to buy a real house because even a small house costs something like 20 or 30 years of working while breathing the filthy dirty air in the city that gonna destroys your lungs faster than you can count to 3 and everything is all fun with our "good" neighboring country, the glorious China, who keeps sending more poisonous foods for us to consume and kidnaps our women and babies.

Lack of hope? More like being a pussy.

Last edited by A Vietnamese; November 6th, 2016 at 09:33 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2016, 11:51 AM   #17
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Because they have never lived in Vietnam as a poor ass bitch who has to study and work like a horse to enjoy the happy little meals that could be barely considered as foods in other countries and KFC is considered as luxury food and lives in a small apartment with no hope to buy a real house because even a small house costs something like 20 or 30 years of working while breathing the filthy dirty air in the city that gonna destroys your lungs faster than you can count to 3 and everything is all fun with our "good" neighboring country, the glorious China, who keeps sending more poisonous foods for us to consume and kidnaps our women and babies.

Lack of hope? More like being a pussy.
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Old November 7th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
One of the newer theories of suicide says that a suicide requires both depression, which provides the desire to die, and capacity for violence, which provides the ability to kill one's self. Under this model a failed suicide attempt is the result of depression without the necessary capacity for violence - the person wants to die but they are not able to go through with it.

The OP or one of the subsequent posters mentioned that female suicides are rising. That might account for most of the increase. Men might be killing themselves at the same or a similar rate but with the added women we get a higher total. Traditionally most of the failed suicide attempts are women and under the above model this could be explained by women lacking the capacity for violence. As society progresses and the barriers between men and women break down, perhaps women are also becoming more violent.

The OP presupposes that people are more depressed today than in the past. This might be true, but it might also be true that people are more violent today. It would be interesting to look at the number of suicide attempts (successful + unsuccessful attempts) over time. Successful suicides are rising but what if the number of attempts is holding steady? ie, the number of failed attempts could be failing because people are more violent. (a quick check on the internet says that these numbers don't exist - no one tracks suicide attempts.)
Maybe today people have more time to dwell upon their depression? As the saying goes, idle hands are the work of the devil. Maybe today, people have access to media which deepens their depression, either with morbid thoughts or by presenting the ideal life, which few have in reality, but the depressed one thinks everybody else does? I know history is replete with scary figures and horror tales, but today's media paints the picture through dark movies and song in such a way as to exaggerate and exasperate.
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Old November 7th, 2016, 08:56 PM   #19

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Drunk driving has dropped over the last few decades due to increased sentencing/fines and through more DARE programs to kids. Meanwhile social media has made the life the teenager infinitely harder as the popularity game is now 24/7, instead of just in school. Besides, that graph is biased, it shows a miniscule rise that is being amplified by making that portion of it larger. If you zoom in on a grain of salt it looks like a mountain too.
I would agree but there is more, a lot more. Occupations in many fields that people took pride in and used as a way up have vanished.. College is no longer within the means of everyone who wants to improve themselves without the burden of risky and unpayable debt.

To contradict your assertions, kids do not work on cars as much as theyhad in years past. Cars are complex, uniform and govern by regulation. When was the last time you saw a backyard custom car? The art form has been abandon. Driving to show off is not the sport that it once was and drunk driving is more often the crime of the over 30 set.

What boys are working on is computers and playing video games. In dens, basements, bedrooms and garages all over the country there are boys with no other option other than employment in restaurants or the mall. They find themselves at home with no reason to go out and settle for playing games on consoles and computers.

30% of all children between the ages of 20 to 25 are still living at home with their parents. This is the time when they should be starting their own household and raising a family. Why risk marriage and the consequences of divorce when there is plenty of porno.

They play online and with their friends all day long and into the wee hours. Unless you are an actual computer savant, this virtual existence proves to be very empty, very empty indeed.

Add drugs or alcohol to this situation and things only get worse..
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Old November 7th, 2016, 09:05 PM   #20

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Because they have never lived in Vietnam as a poor ass bitch who has to study and work like a horse to enjoy the happy little meals that could be barely considered as foods in other countries and KFC is considered as luxury food and lives in a small apartment with no hope to buy a real house because even a small house costs something like 20 or 30 years of working while breathing the filthy dirty air in the city that gonna destroys your lungs faster than you can count to 3 and everything is all fun with our "good" neighboring country, the glorious China, who keeps sending more poisonous foods for us to consume and kidnaps our women and babies.

Lack of hope? More like being a pussy.
I am in agreement. When life is a struggle just to eat, suicide is not a consideration because you are occupied with survival.

The biggest cause of suicide is a life without adversity or purpose.
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