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Old November 8th, 2016, 04:00 AM   #21

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imho this is mostly spiritual but partly material.
traditional America was much more Christian. Bible readings and prayers took place every morning in many public schools, and many went to church on Sundays.

now we have a very secular school system (and entertainment media; how many people on tv go to church?).

instead of teaching our kids that they are Children of God, were created for a purpose, and have eternity to look forward to, they learn that there is no God, they are evolution accidents with no destiny beyond the grave, with fewer good jobs in their futures, and by the way your lifestyle is destroying the planet.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 04:15 AM   #22
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Why risk marriage and the consequences of divorce when there is plenty of porno.
Exactly - Marriage for men was always a sham - After what I have seen in my extended family there is no way I could ever recommend a man to get married after seeing what my father and grandfathers had to endure just to do their part to ensure the human race could make it one more generation.

In a traditional conservative time, a man typically had to work 50+ hours a week (often in dangerous or mundane jobs) for very little benefit. Those jobs might have been in coal mines, sewers, in the trenches, or asbestos mines, but apparently to modern feminists that right is patriarchal privilege.

In modern marriage as others have pointed out, you spend your life fighting traffic and debt to get ahead. Relationships have been ruined by modern feminism. Women are increasingly schooled to hate men - and this is driven by the feminist agenda which has a significant amount of influence over education and government.

The only people that can mock feminists now are comedians. Like the court jestors of old, they were the only ones who could insult the master and get away with it. It's funny how the same pattern carries on today... observe - the only people that can speak the truth and get away with it are comedians.







When you have a generation grow up in the west and see their fathers destroyed in divorce courts its going to have a pretty big impact.

An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves in white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy sh!t we don't need.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #23

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Originally Posted by sailorsam View Post
imho this is mostly spiritual but partly material.
traditional America was much more Christian. Bible readings and prayers took place every morning in many public schools, and many went to church on Sundays.

now we have a very secular school system (and entertainment media; how many people on tv go to church?).

instead of teaching our kids that they are Children of God, were created for a purpose, and have eternity to look forward to, they learn that there is no God, they are evolution accidents with no destiny beyond the grave, with fewer good jobs in their futures, and by the way your lifestyle is destroying the planet.
I agree that this is the primary issue. I know many have an objection to organized religion, and perhaps even to the idea of spirituality, if it refers to a higher being. But, the Christian message (which is all of which I can speak) is a hopeful message at its core. In my own life, especially as I was younger and struggling to understand the harshness of life, the message of Jesus kept me from despair. I am not sure what secularists, humanists, atheists, or just your regular joe - who does not consider the meaning of life - thinks about for hope. I don't believe one will find it in governments, politicians, organizations or any other human figure. We know the fragility of humanity. No matter how hard we try, we usually let people down.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 06:23 AM   #24

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Originally Posted by Jake10 View Post
It's good to see that people are driving better, but now young kids are killing themselves so much that their chances of suicide are as likely as dying from a car accident.



The red line is suicide, and the blue line is traffic accidents, while the gray line is homicides.

Click the image to open in full size.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/he...tionfront&_r=0

At the same time, women are committing suicide more, to the point of a 30 year high.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/he...pgtype=article

It just seems as if a lot of Americans just don't want to live any more.
Is this based on a case study or is this conjectural? As I read this question I wonder how the conclusion was drawn after all the dead cannot talk. In order to make an informed decision they have to extract what the victim was feeling before suicide as a result this can only be hypothetical assumptions. There so many factors that leads to suicide perhaps the main factor is inner strength. There is an old adage that states I complained I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet (paraphrase).

Everything under the sun has occurred at some point or another there is nothing new. However because of our disposition and the fact we are predisposed to certain behavioral pattern some individuals are stronger than others and in some incident more exposed.

Most suicidal individuals are so hopeless until they lose the will to live. This really sucks, instead they ought to be maintained the will to live and lose the feeling of hopelessness. Unfortunate the first point often prevails.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 07:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Redaxe View Post
Exactly - Marriage for men was always a sham - After what I have seen in my extended family there is no way I could ever recommend a man to get married after seeing what my father and grandfathers had to endure just to do their part to ensure the human race could make it one more generation.

In a traditional conservative time, a man typically had to work 50+ hours a week (often in dangerous or mundane jobs) for very little benefit. Those jobs might have been in coal mines, sewers, in the trenches, or asbestos mines, but apparently to modern feminists that right is patriarchal privilege.

In modern marriage as others have pointed out, you spend your life fighting traffic and debt to get ahead. Relationships have been ruined by modern feminism. Women are increasingly schooled to hate men - and this is driven by the feminist agenda which has a significant amount of influence over education and government.

The only people that can mock feminists now are comedians. Like the court jestors of old, they were the only ones who could insult the master and get away with it. It's funny how the same pattern carries on today... observe - the only people that can speak the truth and get away with it are comedians.







When you have a generation grow up in the west and see their fathers destroyed in divorce courts its going to have a pretty big impact.

An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves in white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy sh!t we don't need.
You get married because you're creating a life contract with another person. It involves not only love and vows of monogamy and loyalty (good luck with a long term relationship without a commitment), it involves a partnership in finances and property (combining households). It involves a division of labor (no longer one person needed to do everything around the domicile, two or more can split it). It involves the responsible raising of children needed to continue the culture, 2 surviving children are needed to sustain, >2.5 are needed to expand.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 10:54 PM   #26

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Originally Posted by Rodger View Post
I agree that this is the primary issue. I know many have an objection to organized religion, and perhaps even to the idea of spirituality, if it refers to a higher being. But, the Christian message (which is all of which I can speak) is a hopeful message at its core. In my own life, especially as I was younger and struggling to understand the harshness of life, the message of Jesus kept me from despair. I am not sure what secularists, humanists, atheists, or just your regular joe - who does not consider the meaning of life - thinks about for hope. I don't believe one will find it in governments, politicians, organizations or any other human figure. We know the fragility of humanity. No matter how hard we try, we usually let people down.


Alas, Christianity is a religion of hope and fear, as Ambrose Bierce stated in the Devil's Dictionary
While I am too far from a perfect true Buddhist, I can safely say that Christianity take advantage of the weakness of the common people.
While true Buddhists do not have political or military ambitions that go against the non-political nature of true Buddhism, they are very strong spiritually.
The Buddha's teaching is that we don't depend on deities or others for our enlightenment; others can provide the instructions but they do not substitute your efforts.
We are extremely fortunate to be humans, which is the only path of life that can become Arahants, or equivalents of Buddha.
The devoted monastic disciples have an option to become Arahants, but even laypeople can transcend beyond the cycle of life.
I have no intention to turn all people to Buddhism; sometimes, other faiths may fit them better.
Even Daoists and Confucians have admirable meanings of life, so Christianity is not the only way.
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Old November 9th, 2016, 05:25 AM   #27

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instead of teaching our kids that they are Children of God, were created for a purpose, and have eternity to look forward to, they learn that there is no God, they are evolution accidents with no destiny beyond the grave
I believe in God, but have always preferred our scientific origins to the Christian tale.

In it we come from stardust, not mud and ribs, and far from having no purpose are free and able to enrich ourselves and others without Heaven or Hell looming over our shoulder, and old priests hamstringing our success with their creed.
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Old November 9th, 2016, 06:25 AM   #28
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It involves not only love and vows of monogamy and loyalty
The divorce statistics alone shoot down this argument - marriage has nothing to do with love, it never did. That you believe this shows that you have been brainwashed by our culture into thinking so.

Many cultures across the world the elite males practiced polygamy way back into ancient times (to them the idea of a man kneeling down on the ground to commit himself to one woman was absurd).

Rome and Greece were an exception to polygamy and it is one aspect of Graeco/Roman culture that Christianity integrated with - that is why monogamy in the west was seen to be (at least until the recent times) the cultural norm.

I'm just bringing some perspective here - modern chivalry emerged in the medieval period and reached its peak in the Victorian times. Now corporations have learned that diamond rings, wedding dresses, ceremonies, honeymoons etc.... is a billion dollar industry. That is why 'love' is perpetuated by Disney fantasy stories... Then the lawyers learned that divorce is a billion dollar industry - ahem 'no fault divorce' - you can have the state requisition 50% of your assets purely on 'irreconcilable differences'.

Believe me if you can sell something to make money someone will do it, that includes 'romantic love'

In ancient Rome (which was monogamous) marriage was entirely about procreation - nothing else. Roman men came to despise marriage as they viewed it as society shackling them with an difficult burden that forced them into unrewarding low paid work.

The average Roman man was exploited by the State and were forced to serve in the military - they had little land or property and had no realistic opportunity to hold office or have political influence and evidently found their family obligations toward women to be oppressive. Hence by the time of Augustus, Rome was in the grip of a marriage crisis.

Rome might appear as a 'mans world' but only if you were very wealthy - if you weren't life was a struggle to provide for your family. Not much different from the marriage + mortgage life that western men are increasingly shying away from.

Coming back to this thread - why don't so many people want to live anymore. One element behind the male suicide problem is that men are conditioned from birth to base their inherent value as a man on female approval. Ester Vilar writes about this at length. It starts at birth where their mother conditions them to seek her approval by behaving appropriately. Then the boy goes to school and it under the influence of a female teacher who again conditions the child to base his self-worth on his teachers approval. He gets a girlfriend and learns he has to keep her happy so he can be happy. Marriage - the same deal.... Most men never learn (or forget) that they can be perfectly happy on their own.

Marriage wasn't quite so bad when jobs were plentiful and people stuck to traditional gender roles - but there simply isn't enough wealth to pass down to the younger generations for them all to be able to live the American Dream. Putting that yoke on yourself (which society does from birth) is a recipe for trouble.

Last edited by Redaxe; November 9th, 2016 at 06:37 AM.
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Old November 9th, 2016, 07:14 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Redaxe View Post
The divorce statistics alone shoot down this argument - marriage has nothing to do with love, it never did. That you believe this shows that you have been brainwashed by our culture into thinking so.

Many cultures across the world the elite males practiced polygamy way back into ancient times (to them the idea of a man kneeling down on the ground to commit himself to one woman was absurd).

Rome and Greece were an exception to polygamy and it is one aspect of Graeco/Roman culture that Christianity integrated with - that is why monogamy in the west was seen to be (at least until the recent times) the cultural norm.

I'm just bringing some perspective here - modern chivalry emerged in the medieval period and reached its peak in the Victorian times. Now corporations have learned that diamond rings, wedding dresses, ceremonies, honeymoons etc.... is a billion dollar industry. That is why 'love' is perpetuated by Disney fantasy stories... Then the lawyers learned that divorce is a billion dollar industry - ahem 'no fault divorce' - you can have the state requisition 50% of your assets purely on 'irreconcilable differences'.

Believe me if you can sell something to make money someone will do it, that includes 'romantic love'

In ancient Rome (which was monogamous) marriage was entirely about procreation - nothing else. Roman men came to despise marriage as they viewed it as society shackling them with an difficult burden that forced them into unrewarding low paid work.

The average Roman man was exploited by the State and were forced to serve in the military - they had little land or property and had no realistic opportunity to hold office or have political influence and evidently found their family obligations toward women to be oppressive. Hence by the time of Augustus, Rome was in the grip of a marriage crisis.

Rome might appear as a 'mans world' but only if you were very wealthy - if you weren't life was a struggle to provide for your family. Not much different from the marriage + mortgage life that western men are increasingly shying away from.

Coming back to this thread - why don't so many people want to live anymore. One element behind the male suicide problem is that men are conditioned from birth to base their inherent value as a man on female approval. Ester Vilar writes about this at length. It starts at birth where their mother conditions them to seek her approval by behaving appropriately. Then the boy goes to school and it under the influence of a female teacher who again conditions the child to base his self-worth on his teachers approval. He gets a girlfriend and learns he has to keep her happy so he can be happy. Marriage - the same deal.... Most men never learn (or forget) that they can be perfectly happy on their own.

Marriage wasn't quite so bad when jobs were plentiful and people stuck to traditional gender roles - but there simply isn't enough wealth to pass down to the younger generations for them all to be able to live the American Dream. Putting that yoke on yourself (which society does from birth) is a recipe for trouble.
I've read all this sort of stuff before by angry young single men. But regular sex with someone you care about tends to cheapen those words.
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Old November 9th, 2016, 09:45 AM   #30

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Maybe now a new variable caused by recent events have contribute to the level of depression?

The new generation is open to mental illness and suicide awareness. Maybe it has to do with the destigmatation of suicide and we are heading more of it now than before where suicide attempters were afraid of speaking out?
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