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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:15 AM   #31

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Canada, United States and Australia were Western colonies and they don't seem to be still underdeveloped ...

The point is that the mentioned former colonies have developed a Western society with democracy and a market economy.
I get so tired of hearing capitalists give complete credit to market forces for economic progress. De Gaulle, for example, nationalized all of the basic industries of France right after the war (according to Wikipedia) "... which contributed to thirty years of unprecedented growth." The Scandinavian countries have generally higher standards of living than the home of unfettered capitalism, the US, and their economies all have some variant of socialist control over capitalism kept contained.

2015 Human Development Index:

Norway
Australia
Switzerland
Denmark
Netherlands
Germany
Ireland
United States

'Adam Smith' developed his theory in the 1700's. We have learned a few more things since then. Well ... some of us have ...
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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:38 AM   #32
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What is wood essential for? I'm curious.
Which country/ region are you from ?

I am asking because in Europe/Canada/ The US where wood is plentiful we tend to take it for granted.. But if you look at history, humans would probably still be in the stone age if wood were not available on the planet.. Its hard to overstate its importance:

Tools
Weapons
Energy (fire)... Early metallurgy used huge amounts of wood
Construction... Even today in the US houses are largely made of wood... Aside from the buildings themselves, wood is used for scaffolding etc....
Ships and Shipbuilding (to this day)
Furniture
All kinds of early machines (e.g. windmills)
Carriages
Even early cars and aeroplanes were largely made of.... wood up till ww2

If you look up developed countries you'll find that they have plentiful supply of wood ..... when its available in large quantities its a cheap and versatile material which allows you to be competitive in many areas
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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:42 AM   #33
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Yes de Gaulle was right.

Many of these countries have been independent for more than 50 to 60 years. Sure you can make the argument that it was the colonial masters fault as to why poor countries remain poor maybe 5-10 yrs. after gaining independence but like I said many of these poor countries have been independent for more than half a century. What did they do all that time?

By the way as many have said, there have been countries that used to be colonies that have turned out to be successful and there are countries that were never colonized that remain poor. Ethiopia and Liberia are examples of these and yes I know Ethiopia was invaded but that was for a short time.

The sad truth is these people were simply not ready for independence plain and simple. I'm not saying these countries shouldn't be independent but they should have fought for human rights instead of independence. They should have waited until they created a vast pool of educated people, built up their economies, made sure that unemployment was low and just had a high standard of living all while being a colony, very similar to Hong Kong, then independence.

Also in addition, I read about these before, I don't know if any of these are true but Burma and the Philippines were the richest in SEA back when they were colonies. Majority of Jamaicans regretted independence. I even read that Yemenis are sorry for kicking the british out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Myanmar

We should have stayed with Britain: Shock poll reveals 60% of Jamaicans think they'd be better as a colony | Daily Mail Online

LiveLeak.com - 'We Regret Driving Out the British,' Say Yemenis...
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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:42 AM   #34
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Very good point. Hong Kong might be another example, although the future there could be compromised by Chinese colonial mismanagement.
I would strongly caution against using Singapore as a case study

It is in essence, a city, not a country... And most importantly it is sitting on the world's most frequented waterway, where some 60% of the world's maritime traffic goes through

This is a huge windfall which provides a large amount of revenue that can be reinvested to develop the city which has a relatively small population (about 5 million) putting it outside the world's top 50 most populous cities

City Mayors: Largest cities in the world by population (1 to 125)

Likewise Hong Kong, as the gateway to/from China is a very specific case....

Last edited by tomar; November 24th, 2016 at 07:45 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:47 AM   #35

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I love the way you constructed your question.
Thanks! I spend some time working on the construction of a message ... especially a theme starter ... in an offline editor before I post it.

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So the xenophobia issue with Zimbabwe is actually quite the opposite. ... xenophobic attacks against Africans who migrated to South Africa.
I didn't say the xenophobia was limited to Zimbabwe. I said it was created by the mismanagement in Zimbabwe. The expression of the xenophobia in South Africa is entirely consistent with my point.

By the way, the Wikipedia article on xenophobia uses South Africa as the ONLY illustrating example!

But some xenophobia also exists in Zimbabwe itself. The Shona people comprise 70% of the Zimbabwe population and the Ndebele are second with 20% of the population. I found one source that claims this is a problem. The CNS news service (admittedly not the most reliable source, but still ...) reported:

For the "cycle of violence, humiliation, oppression and exploitation" in Zimbabwe to stop, the truth about the country's violence needs to be told and the rival between Shona and Ndebele needs to be addressed, said Zimbabwe's Catholic bishops in Cape Town.

The bishops said Zimbabwe "is deeply divided" politically and, besides having conflict between different racial groups, its painful history includes "hurtful memories from ethnic rivalry" between the Shona and Ndebele people.

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There was never any civil war between native war lords in Zimbabwe. The issues in Zimbabwe where caused by one person ...
The Wikipedia article on Zimbabwe, under the heading, "UDI and civil war (19651979)", states, "... war subsequently ensued when Joshua Nkomo's Zimbabwe African People's Union (ZAPU) and Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe African National Union (ZANU), supported actively by communist powers and neighboring African nations ..."

The "war lord" Mugabe did win the war ... eventually ... although the violence continues.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 08:03 AM   #36

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I would strongly caution against using Singapore as a case study
Caution noted. Singapore and Hong Kong are unique, I'll give you that.

But they continue to stand as example of previously undeveloped entities that have done very well. You have provided some excellent resources that they have taken advantage of. They also have other problems, but for reasons that deserve close attention, they seem to have overcome them.

I wonder, for example, if Manila (number 7 on your list) would have done as well with different leadership and isolation from the rest of the Philippines.

I also found the relative sizes of the cities on your list interesting. For example, I had never heard of Belo Horizonte and it's two places above Singapore.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 08:27 AM   #37

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Namibia is actually one of the most stable and one of the most successful economies in all of Africa.
I always like to fact-check unsupported assertions. Namibia is doing OK, but they're not the flowers and butterflies example your statement suggests.

Namibia is just slightly in the bottom half of the Human Development Index at 126 out of 188. They're above the Congo (136) and most other African nations, but below South Africa (116). They're not doing too badly on the political stability front either. The country is under single party rule, but they transitioned from one strong man to the next one without violence -- which is actually fairly rare. There was a civil war during the independence struggle, but as these things go, it wasn't as horrific as many are.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 08:41 AM   #38

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What "native war lords" engaged in a civil war in Zimbabwe? Just curious about what it is you are referring to here.
See my post:
http://historum.com/philosophy-polit...rd#post2652405

In general, however, very good points! I mostly agree with what you have written. My main disagreement is that there are also important factors that you didn't list ... mainly internal cultural imperatives that forced countries in the wrong direction and bad leadership that did the same ... that are also reasons why these countries have not done well.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 08:49 AM   #39

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Well, that was not an actual civil war. It was a pretty brutal campaign of violence and suppression though.

Quote:
In general, however, very good points! I mostly agree with what you have written. My main disagreement is that there are also important factors that you didn't list ... mainly internal cultural imperatives that forced countries in the wrong direction and bad leadership that did the same ... that are also reasons why these countries have not done well.
Sure, bad leaders can be elected democratically, or take power by force in the absence of a legitimate traditional authority. However, I don't really see the things you mentioned as being anywhere near as significant as those issues I highlighted.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 08:52 AM   #40

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... they should have fought for human rights instead of independence. They should have waited until ...
Yeah ... Hindsight is much more accurate than foresight and the would is crammed full of "should have".

Ighayere wrote an excellent post on the unhelpful role of western countries in colonial development ...

http://historum.com/philosophy-polit...ml#post2652291

... but your post has a lot of truth in it too. The fact is, it didn't happen -- for both sets of reasons.

My goal here is to explore and understand the reasons and I think (in contrast to a lot of threads where simple name-calling and uncompromising accusations are the rule) we're doing pretty well so far in this thread.
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