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Old July 6th, 2017, 08:56 AM   #51
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Personally I think why the west is having a bad time right now is because they are resistant to technological , production evolution that is needed to spur the next technological evolution of humans. The thing with the west is it has evolved a system that takes a full advantage of present world order( i.e dependence on Oil, Lack of automation). A change from the present world order does not suite the general population of the west. You see a lot of anti-automation movements in USA, a anti-globalization sentiment in the west, pro-fossil fuel stand in the west ( like in USA). Countries like India and China which are just rising who are just developing infrastructures, the system there haven't been build for fossil fuel intensive, energy inefficient economies are more open to modern Ideas like electric cars, Fission and Fussion Nuclear power, Automation, AI , Blockchain, Bitcoins, cloning and genitics and hence you see them developing and west has more or less plateaued. As much as Indian and Chinese are traditional for both these countries globalization is a force for good unlike the west where it is derided. I feel that west does not want to compete with the world. The thing with competition although it pinches in short-term it helps in making of extremely efficient economic system. I really believe that the elites in the west realizes that they have plateaued and want to bring about such technological evolution but the general sentiment is against such changes because it will disrupt the traditional western society.

It is like the situation between India and britain in 17th century only thing is the roles have reversed.
I'm not sure if I agree with any of this. If you look at worldwide patents issued, most of them come from the West (including Japan). Electric cars aren't an eastern invention. Solar energy isn't an eastern invention. The computer revolution didn't start anywhere in the east, either. Fossil fuels will be with us for a long time but will also continue to decline in the future in spite of the troglodytic attitudes of some of our leaders. The whole digital revolution is basically a British and American invention.

Coal is never coming back. Clean Coal doesn't exist.

When a state like California with the world's 6th largest economy tells the president to "go stuff it" and that it will abide by the Paris Accords regardless of what he says, one has to realize that broad generalizations don't really apply. And it sn't just California either.

No doubt China and India are "rising"; more power to them, but they have a very long way to go before they get to the "plateau" the west has been at for a very long time now.

I don't understand what the reference to "traditional western society" is because you are attempting to paint a very large portion of the world with a very broad brush.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 09:05 AM   #52
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The other thing I have noticed though is the slow rate at which (in UK) they re-develop their infrastructure. Last year Pakistan added nearly 200 miles to the motorway network. in comparison I noticed in UK they have been upgrading a section 50 miles of MI which involves turning the already existent hard shoulder into a flow lane and thus adding a extra lane. This appears to be a cheapskate way of increasing lanes and they call this "Smart Motorway" although how removing the safety lane is smart is beyond me. What though is amazing that they are still at it 2 years on. The rate of progress is slower than a snail.

However beyond the griping there is a dilemma. The basic motorway operatives are paid nearly 600 PW. That is strictly 40 hour week day shift. Night shift will be 1.5 times higher thus increasing the wage to 900. Plenty of holidays. Safety rules at every corner. Nothing moves without safety protocols at every corner even if the entire project has to stop. If the driver is not issued ear muffers he could end up taking the company to court. Insurance to cover every liability is a must. all this slows up, increases cost out of the roof.

Compare this to Pakistan. 75 Pw and work 60 hours, no safety to speak of. Just get on with it minus any safety protocols or insurance. Few workers dead on the project is just part of kismet and no big deal in bigger picture.

This sort of 'encumbrance' exists in all Western countries but surely is that not a good thing - even if the downside is slower and more costier projects?
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Old July 6th, 2017, 09:16 AM   #53
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Eh, did you see me mention Pakistan? Or are you choosing to see things? I mentioned China, India and how they are not even in the same league with referance to the discussion in hand. The only common thing they have is they are big, yes real big in populations.

As regards rest of the points you raised I think one of the very strong points and defining differances between it and the developing world is the amazing ability it has for change. The West is in my opinion definition of being open to fresh ideas and is dynamic. It is constantly evolving and chaging. That is one of it's strengths. It is the developing world is which is stuck in a time warp with huge populations still cut off and living insular, primtive lives. So I find it rather amazing for you to suggest otherwise.

As regards some of the specific points you raised like electric cars - well could that been simple economic forces at play. If you don't have oil and it imports have catastrophic effect on your balance sheet then yes you will go to all lengths to find alternatives. However countries like US or even UK do have huge fossil reserves. When they start running low on those watch how fast change comes about.
There are plenty of electric cars in the west. Some of the most dramatic and innovative electric car technologies in the US come out of California with long, long waiting lists to buy these cars. There is massive solar investment in the US with more than 6 times the employment in solar than in coal.

There is no resistance to either change or new technologies in the US, and probably not in "Europe" either.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #54
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The other thing I have noticed though is the slow rate at which (in UK) they re-develop their infrastructure. Last year Pakistan added nearly 200 miles to the motorway network. in comparison I noticed in UK they have been upgrading a section 50 miles of MI which involves turning the already existent hard shoulder into a flow lane and thus adding a extra lane. This appears to be a cheapskate way of increasing lanes and they call this "Smart Motorway" although how removing the safety lane is smart is beyond me. What though is amazing that they are still at it 2 years on. The rate of progress is slower than a snail.

However beyond the griping there is a dilemma. The basic motorway operatives are paid nearly 600 PW. That is strictly 40 hour week day shift. Night shift will be 1.5 times higher thus increasing the wage to 900. Plenty of holidays. Safety rules at every corner. Nothing moves without safety protocols at every corner even if the entire project has to stop. If the driver is not issued ear muffers he could end up taking the company to court. Insurance to cover every liability is a must. all this slows up, increases cost out of the roof.

Compare this to Pakistan. 75 Pw and work 60 hours, no safety to speak of. Just get on with it minus any safety protocols or insurance. Few workers dead on the project is just part of kismet and no big deal in bigger picture.

This sort of 'encumbrance' exists in all Western countries but surely is that not a good thing - even if the downside is slower and more costier projects?
The Interstate Highway asystem in the US has more than 30,000 miles of four lane highways in it. Each day, hundreds of miles are being repaired and renovated. And this does not even include national highways or hundreds of thousands of miles of paved state and local farm-to-market roads. We are not talking about immature countries and economies here.

Last edited by royal744; July 6th, 2017 at 09:28 AM.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 09:28 AM   #55
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There are plenty of electric cars in the west. Some of the most dramatic and innovative electric car technologies in the US come out of California with long, long waiting lists to buy these cars. There is massive solar investment in the US with more than 6 times the employment in solar than in coal.

There is no resistance to either change or new technologies in the US, and probably not in "Europe" either.
Well I have seen lots of electric/hybrid cars in UK. I even saw supermarkets with charging points for electric cars so I agree electric cars are moving in. As I said before one of the things I admire about the West is how fast it adapts to new ideas and even new cultures. In London the speed of change is breath taking. The energy and vigorous activity is amazing. Anything and everything is up for grabs as long as it helps you move forward. This is quite unlike the dormant, insular, tied down, convention strapped, socially tied down cultures that are prevalent in the east.

Lot of people don't by electric cars because of performance. Buyers used to 3.0 lite turbocharged BMWs, Audis etc are not going to take easily to tinny little Hoover foating around bereft of character. I am not too sure about safety either. I saw a electric/hybrid Toyota (Prius?) taxi light up like a candle in a slow speed accident where the petrol car remained safe. So I think there is also element of consumer preferance here that might be influencing things.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 11:21 AM   #56
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From the start the "developed" world was mentioned, not the "western" world. They are not identical (though for both we can say they are not very well defined). Few will include Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore in the "western" world, but for the "developed" world there could be some reasons to do so. And are many South and Central American countries not "western" in a sense, if not "developed"?
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Old July 6th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #57

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The Interstate Highway asystem in the US has more than 30,000 miles of four lane highways in it. Each day, hundreds of miles are being repaired and renovated. And this does not even include national highways or hundreds of thousands of miles of paved state and local farm-to-market roads. We are not talking about immature countries and economies here.
I am not saying developed world does not produce innovations in the sectors of the future, they do but the problem is at institutional level and government level they are reluctant to even adopt such innovation. The government and the large enterprises is vary of such innovation. West could have automated everything over a decade ago but yet they choose not to do so. I pretty sure that developed world could have reduced the cost of produce solar power if they had invested in technologies for mass production of solar pannels and storage but they choose not to. It took a poor country like India to bring down the cost of production of solar plants below that of coal. They are a lot of examples in which government act in favour of pre-existing Multi national to prevent rise of solar in US. The world moving away from oil to Solar does not favour them. For example US dollar is used for buying and selling of crude oil. US can print more currency because there will always be demand ( every one needs crude oil ) but if the shift in source of energy it destroys petrodollars for starters(This is something US will have to deal with in comming future: It is just an example how change in form of energy used can effect USA).
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Old July 6th, 2017, 06:09 PM   #58
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Well I have seen lots of electric/hybrid cars in UK. I even saw supermarkets with charging points for electric cars so I agree electric cars are moving in. As I said before one of the things I admire about the West is how fast it adapts to new ideas and even new cultures. In London the speed of change is breath taking. The energy and vigorous activity is amazing. Anything and everything is up for grabs as long as it helps you move forward. This is quite unlike the dormant, insular, tied down, convention strapped, socially tied down cultures that are prevalent in the east.

Lot of people don't by electric cars because of performance. Buyers used to 3.0 lite turbocharged BMWs, Audis etc are not going to take easily to tinny little Hoover foating around bereft of character. I am not too sure about safety either. I saw a electric/hybrid Toyota (Prius?) taxi light up like a candle in a slow speed accident where the petrol car remained safe. So I think there is also element of consumer preferance here that might be influencing things.
You couldn't be more wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
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Old July 6th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #59
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I am not saying developed world does not produce innovations in the sectors of the future, they do but the problem is at institutional level and government level they are reluctant to even adopt such innovation. The government and the large enterprises is vary of such innovation. West could have automated everything over a decade ago but yet they choose not to do so. I pretty sure that developed world could have reduced the cost of produce solar power if they had invested in technologies for mass production of solar pannels and storage but they choose not to. It took a poor country like India to bring down the cost of production of solar plants below that of coal. They are a lot of examples in which government act in favour of pre-existing Multi national to prevent rise of solar in US. The world moving away from oil to Solar does not favour them. For example US dollar is used for buying and selling of crude oil. US can print more currency because there will always be demand ( every one needs crude oil ) but if the shift in source of energy it destroys petrodollars for starters(This is something US will have to deal with in comming future: It is just an example how change in form of energy used can effect USA).
Not true. The US has made huge investments in solar. My own city uses solar. It also uses wind energy. In this country, innovation doesn't depend on government. There's a great deal of truth to the adage that, "If you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your front door", no government needed.

It is true that big business really does not like competition until the other guy's innovations are so good and so profitable that they can no longer ignore them. At this point, the big car companies can choose to become like typewriters, or they can attempt to copy the their guy without infringing on his patents. Every American car manufacturer today makes hybrids and most have electric versions as well, but the leader for the pack s still Tesla, whose cars are higher quality, have much greater range, and are cars that outperform most gasoline powered cars.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 09:09 PM   #60

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From the start the "developed" world was mentioned, not the "western" world. They are not identical (though for both we can say they are not very well defined). Few will include Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore in the "western" world, but for the "developed" world there could be some reasons to do so. And are many South and Central American countries not "western" in a sense, if not "developed"?
Many developed economies observe "plateau" of their development level; that usually means there are still spaces for improvements.
Disparity, the condition of First Nations and Inuits in Canada, city decays, and "rust belts" are among the few issues with developed economies.
Urban sprawl vs upgrades of previously developed area is a consistent debate.
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