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Old July 24th, 2017, 04:24 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by Disciple of Sophia View Post
Of course there are...UFOs but what are they is the real question
Cool thing is, if a natural phenomenon appeared and behaved in those ways, that would be almost just as amazing to me as aliens
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #12
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Sculptingman said:
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And folks who never heard of ghosts- NEVER see ghosts.
What about the first person ever who saw, or thought he saw, a ghost?

All cultures, from Ancient Rome, China and India etc, seem to mention ghosts. I would rather not believe in ghosts, as they seem to be entities trapped in a limbo where they pointlessly repeat actions they did while alive, but there there is too much testimony of them to entirely disregard.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:41 AM   #13

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Rupert She!drake angers many other scientists. That said, in his model, a ghost could be seen as a standing wave of "morphic resonance".
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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Disciple of Sophia View Post
You're showing a delusion yourself here called "normalcy bias". You're assuming because you don't believe in ghosts they're not real and no one can be seeing them and rationalizing your prejudice.
No, actually I am not showing any bias at all. I do not rely on MY perceptions... I rely on what can be demonstrated to be true.

If you can demonstrate a ghost- or evidence of a ghost- I will believe.
But to believe in things for which you have no evidence whatsoever is to believe in a fantasy.

SEEING things means nothing. Your entire visual and auditory perception is an illusion created by your brain, within your brain.

Go to any website showing optical illusions and you can see copious evidence that what you think you see is an illusion.
Read up on hallucination or on human dreaming, and you will find copious evidence that your brain can create a convincing experience of reality with NO sensory input whatsoever.

Scientific testing has shown that you brain activity while awake is composed of only 15% external stimuli coming in, and the rest of the information is coming from within the brain itself.






Quote:
Thank you for adding a word to my vocabulary, though a bad explanation. It does not follow that someone seeing a ghost or UFO is confronted with "ambiguous sensory input" or that you're trapped in what your mind has decided to see, e.g. I see a yellow smiley beating a donkey with a stick to the side of this post, that does not cause me to think that the smiley and donkey are in anyway real... now you see them too

There are better explanations for you prejudice.

#1 Limited perspective, e.g. yesterday I saw a cloud with a large hole through the middle while out for a walk. I wondered is this real and thought that in my whole life I had never seen one of those, as I walked on I saw that it was really two clouds that had created the illusion of a cloud with a large hole in the middle.

#2 People are really seeing it, but they're not really awake.

#3 People are just telling tall tales.

Of course there are real ghosts and UFOs but what are they is the real question
We have the capability of capturing and recording not only everything that human senses can perceive... but vastly more than human senses can perceive.
If there were anything THERE to be perceived, like an actual ghost, then it would have been recorded... but it never has been.

ergo- its not there.

If people still perceive it- Either their brain is misinterpreting a perception by imposing a pattern that they believe onto a perception that is unclear... OR- the phenomena of a "ghost" is something that happens only internally- within the brain. In which case, the truth is there is still no Ghost "out there".

Is it possible that dead spirits interact with living human beings by appearing as an experience that is occurring only within their brains?
I suppose so....
But that is the functional definition of a delusion, and unless and until someone can pony up a theory of ghosts that can predict their occurrence or explain a testable mechanism for how they are generated... then to assume them to be anything other than a mental delusion is to embrace a belief without any evidence in support.

Given the demonstrable, repeatable, and well understood FACT of pareidolia preferring to believe that ghosts are somehow real spirits is no more reasonable than believing a fire and pressure proof unicorn lives at the earth's core.



Moreover- there is ample evidence of delusions in the PATTERN of purported 'evidence' that believers point to.

They fall into two categories- obviously falsified evidence such as Bigfoot carcasses that are not made available for peer review, alien autopsies that are carefully out of focus and have questionable provenance and other methods mostly identifiable by their profit motive.

And the SINCERE evidence- that collected By actual believers and that they present as their 'proof'- this evidence always comes in the from of shakey- unfocused- ambiguous imagery or sound recordings that are simply not clear enough to be identifiable.

There is a reason why sincerely collected 'evidence' for ghosts and UFOS follows this pattern... because of selection bias. Any photography or video that is CLEAR clearly shows no Ghost or UFO... and so is dismissed as evidence of such.
That leaves only the ambiguous imagery or recordings as "evidence".

when ALL purported evidence is ambiguous- then that proves that clear evidence in support can not be collected- because the thing you want to believe is there, is not there.


People fear death. And desperately want to believe in some existence ongoing.
They are raised to believe in afterlives, spirits and such and so are more likely to interpret something they think they saw thru that filter.


Just as Cops are likely to perceive a threat where none exists, because their JOB is to look for threats.
And the religious are likely to imagine that their prayers are answered... and dismiss how many prayers were not.

So too does belief shape perceptions of Ghosts and UFOs.

we see what we decide we are looking at.
Just as every person going thru a divorce saw a Hero when they got married, and a Villain when they broke up.

Last edited by sculptingman; July 24th, 2017 at 12:23 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 01:59 PM   #15

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I'm not going to stick my foot into the ectoplasm, but regarding UFOs , you must then conclude that all of the witnesses (many at once over several days in some cases) were mistaken about what they saw or misidentified something because they can't produce a photograph. Some of those witnesses might beg to differ. With the Internet, a lot of photographs are out there, not all of them are blurry. A number of governments have found these illusions worthy of study. People can make up their own minds. Time will tell. Sculptingman's and my position on UFOs are both clear.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #16

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These are more illusions?:

"At 2:50 a.m. nine more UFOs were observed. Captain Howell of the Air Force Command Post phoned at 3:00 to report a security team at missile launch facility H-2 “reported a white oval UFO directly overhead.” At 3:17, F. E. Warren AFB reported that a security team at missile launch facility B-4 observed a similar object 90 miles east of Cheyenne—oval and white with white lines on its sides and a flashing red light in its center—traveling at a high rate of speed then descending; and appearing to land 10 miles east of the site. At 3:25 a.m., E-Flight reported six UFOs stacked vertically. G-Flight reported one ascending, while at the same time, E-2 reported two more UFOs had joined the seven for a total of nine. At 3:35 a.m. Colonel Williams, commander of Sioux Army Depot, reported five UFOs heading east. At 3:40 a.m., G-Flight reported two UFOs, one at 70 degrees, and another at 120 degrees azimuth. Then three more stacked vertically came from the east, passed through the other two, and all five headed west. Finally, at 4:00 a.m. base commander Colonel Johnson said that Q-Flight reported nine UFOs; four to the northwest, three to the northeast, and two over Cheyenne in the south... "

From:
A Turning Point in the Controversy | History of the United States Air Force UFO Programs | Sign Oral History Project

The beginnings of the tech:
https://phys.org/news/2016-03-morphi...-robotics.html
THE tech: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iqt2DHpU-HY

Last edited by Todd Feinman; July 24th, 2017 at 04:14 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Feinman View Post
These are more illusions?:

"At 2:50 a.m. nine more UFOs were observed. Captain Howell of the Air Force Command Post phoned at 3:00 to report a security team at missile launch facility H-2 “reported a white oval UFO directly overhead.” At 3:17, F. E. Warren AFB reported that a security team at missile launch facility B-4 observed a similar object 90 miles east of Cheyenne—oval and white with white lines on its sides and a flashing red light in its center—traveling at a high rate of speed then descending; and appearing to land 10 miles east of the site. At 3:25 a.m., E-Flight reported six UFOs stacked vertically. G-Flight reported one ascending, while at the same time, E-2 reported two more UFOs had joined the seven for a total of nine. At 3:35 a.m. Colonel Williams, commander of Sioux Army Depot, reported five UFOs heading east. At 3:40 a.m., G-Flight reported two UFOs, one at 70 degrees, and another at 120 degrees azimuth. Then three more stacked vertically came from the east, passed through the other two, and all five headed west. Finally, at 4:00 a.m. base commander Colonel Johnson said that Q-Flight reported nine UFOs; four to the northwest, three to the northeast, and two over Cheyenne in the south... "

From:
A Turning Point in the Controversy | History of the United States Air Force UFO Programs | Sign Oral History Project

The beginnings of the tech:
https://phys.org/news/2016-03-morphi...-robotics.html
THE tech: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iqt2DHpU-HY
In air force jargon- a UFO- is exactly what it says it is.
Unidentified.

The vast majority of reported sightings CAN be and have been identified.
Those were all ordinary phenomena.

And the handful that remain unidentified are only unidentified BECAUSE there is no clear evidence on which to make a determination.

To make the leap from the term UNIDENTIFIED to "Alien Spacecraft" is a leap of pure delusional need to believe in nonsense.


Besides...
Citing Air Force accounts is doubly suspicious since the entire modern UFO craze originated as a minor Air Force intelligence operation seeking to confuse the reportage of desert hicks who saw Air Force experimental craft being tested.
Get people to imagine spaceships, and saucers so that their reports would become more embellished by that belief and so Not be seen as any reliable account that Soviets could use to glean info on what the US was working on.

So- is the government hiding something? Sure- they CONNED folks into imagining things that weren't there... in the interests of keeping secret development programs more opaque.


Back in the 50s- when cameras were rare and unlikely to capture anything sudden and unexpected with any clarity... shakey unfocused images were considered what you might expect in an unexpected event.

But today- nearly every person carries an autofocusing video camera on their person.
We have video of the FIRST plane hitting the twin towers. We have numerous clear focal videos of meteors. We have videos of airplane crashes.
We have videos of shuttles breaking up on reentry.

There is zero excuse for why... if they really are there and visible to the eye- that no one has captured unequivocal evidence.

What UFO believers claim to be evidence is in the exact category of not actually evidence as the stuff that religious people cite as evidence.


The axiom that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence is a false axiom.
The one characteristic shared by ALL things that do not exist, is that they leave no evidence of existing.

And the absence of evidence, despite concentrated efforts to find evidence, is damning.

we found Okapis and Coelacanths when were weren't even looking.
We discovered the electromagnetic spectrum because we kept finding evidence of something we could not explain.

We have found the Turds left by dinosaurs that are millions of years extinct.
Yet supposed Bigfeet have left not one single feces anywhere to be found.


And space aliens are so powerful that they can evade EVERY form of human detection.... EXCEPT for rubes who can not operate the focus function of a camera. Oh- and they keep forgetting to close the blinds on their spacecraft so you can't see their lights at night.

Please.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:18 PM   #18

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Just going to have to disagree on the UFOs, Sculptingman, but that's okay! I don't think you've really taken a serious look at the subject based on your last post, but perhaps you think you have; we will have to disagree on that point too.

Last edited by Todd Feinman; July 24th, 2017 at 11:35 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:42 PM   #19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinating View Post
Sculptingman said:

What about the first person ever who saw, or thought he saw, a ghost?

All cultures, from Ancient Rome, China and India etc, seem to mention ghosts. I would rather not believe in ghosts, as they seem to be entities trapped in a limbo where they pointlessly repeat actions they did while alive, but there there is too much testimony of them to entirely disregard.
I think that these beliefs in several cultures can be traced back to a common, "pre-civilized" origin. (animism, shamanism,...).

It hink the human fear of death may be the ultimate origin of ghost stories.

The appartment building I live in is supposedly haunted. I've noticed that, of all the people in the building (there are only four appartments total), only those who always believed in ghosts (they also happen to be the more religious types) have been encountering strange events. I've had a few strange things too in the past (strange noises, such as footsteps behind me when I'm alone in a room, doors refusing to open as if someone was pushing back on them from the other side), but I only had those things in the period of time when my wife was telling me of the strange things she heard and saw in the appartment. I was actually inadvertently influenced into hearing/seeing things. Ever since I said to myself "this is crazy, there are no ghosts", I've never had anything weird again. Or, when something seemed spooky, there was usually a good explanation for it.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:48 PM   #20

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Originally Posted by Todd Feinman View Post
I'm not going to stick my foot into the ectoplasm, but regarding UFOs , you must then conclude that all of the witnesses (many at once over several days in some cases) were mistaken about what they saw or misidentified something because they can't produce a photograph. Some of those witnesses might beg to differ. With the Internet, a lot of photographs are out there, not all of them are blurry. A number of governments have found these illusions worthy of study. People can make up their own minds. Time will tell. Sculptingman's and my position on UFOs are both clear.
What I fail to understand is, that in this day and age of technological prowess and high quality cell phone cams, the photos that are made of UFO's are still blurry affairs every time.

Are UFO's pruposefully seeking out witnesses with bad cams?

Don't get me wrong, I believe in extraterrestrial life (it's statistically impossible that it doesn't exist), but I don't think we were ever visited by them before.
For me, UFO sightings are mostly misinterpretations of natural phenomena. And those that aren't misinterpretations are either tall tales or alcohol/drugs induced visions.
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