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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:05 AM   #11

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I'm about done with going round in circles. Human rights (in a modern western sense) are an evolution that happened over the best part of 850 years. We didn't just up and decide we were going to have the UN deceleration of human rights over night. However I will humor you for just a few seconds. The exact time that the term "human rights" was probably used in context directly at least according to this book was 1742.
You know what? I'm getting tired of your constant aggressive and dismissive posting. Consider this a warning. If I see you post like this again, I will dump you out of here for a long, long time.

I don't know who you think you are, or what you think your academic qualifications entitle you to do on this forum, but this manner of posting is unacceptable, directed at anyone.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:11 AM   #12

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I agree with Naomasa, one doesn't see the term mentioned much before WW2.
It did not appear in the Atlantic Charter in August 1941, but a year after that document was published, Roosevelt stated as one line in a radio address
The term does not appear in the Covenant of the league of Nations, nor in the Declaration of the United Nations--it does however feature in the Preamble to the United Nations Charter (written by South Africa's Jan Christian Smuts:-


and appears in Article I clause 3 in the form

This is the first International Treaty where the term is used, it is though not defined.

Previously philosophers and politicians wrote about "The Rights of Man" or "Natural Rights" which were far more concerned with political and civil freedom--usually the Anglo-Saxon concept.

Funny how Civil Rights--the right to vote or not be locked up without trial, have become the right to stay in a foreign country on welfare because you have a pet cat or watch satellite TV while being imprisoned for mass-murder.
That's it - the other Germans during the trial make references to treaties governing the treatment of prisoners of war, or treatment of civilians in the occupied territories in a legalistic sense, but the concept of human rights is never something that comes up for discussion, either by the prosecution or the defence.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:12 AM   #13

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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #14
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There are multiple instances of the term. I am not here to spoon feed you knowledge, only to point you in the direction. If you want to think that a rain shower came down and dropped the term human rights on Hitler's head and that's how he died in his bunker you can believe that also.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:18 AM   #15

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There are multiple instances of the term. I am not here to spoon feed you knowledge, only to point you in the direction. If you want to think that a rain shower came down and dropped the term human rights on Hitler's head and that's how he died in his bunker you can believe that also.
Goodbye orestes. We will get back to you about how long this suspension will be. Don't hold your breath.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #16

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The Magna Carta itself is about the right of a man to own their property rather than being pawns of kings and queens. This is the beginning of all human rights that have been codified in common law that still form the basis of common law in most western democracies from Australia, to the United States and the United Kingdom and any country influenced in between.

The idea of human right is at least 800 years also in a modern European/Western sense. The petition of right was expanded in 1628 when the English Parliament further sent a statement regarding civil liberties to King Charles I. This further outlined the issue with the right of human value that was first explicated by the Magna Carta in 1215.

Of course these are starting points for the sake of brevity on the matter.
I don't know about this. I was always under the impression that human rights was an Enlightenment creation. I think you are making a big leap by interpreting the Magna Carta has human rights ideas. The idea was to challenge the prerogative of the king to allow more say for his nobles/barons. I will have to look more into this.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #17

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There is this, which comes very close to the term "human rights", and includes some of the concepts that we would recognise today as "human rights".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declar...of_the_Citizen

It strikes me that what Schellenberg would understand as "human rights" would be closer to the idea of "natural rights". Still, it does seem odd that the phrase should come up in conjunction with the evacuation of the camps. Just before the exchange that I posted, this came up:

DR.KAUFFMANN: Were there any international decisions in respect to this-decisions which referred to existing laws or decisions which referred to international agreements?

SCHELLENBERG: I would like to explain that, if through the intermediary of internationally known persons, the then Reichsfuehrer SS promised the official Allied authorities not to evacuate the concentration camps, owing to the general distress, this promise was binding according to human rights.

Which would suggest that there was some kind of international standard to which the term applies. It's not expounded on during the trial. Unless he means that the human rights that he refers to are the rights conferred through the promise of the Rechsfuehrer SS (Himmler).
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Old September 1st, 2017, 02:43 AM   #18
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After the French revolution in 1789, it was made a Charter of the Human Rights by the French Parliament. Long time before 1948.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 03:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
There is this, which comes very close to the term "human rights", and includes some of the concepts that we would recognise today as "human rights".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declar...of_the_Citizen
That's one of the first full expressions of universal human rights (much briefer was Jefferson's famous D.O.I. line "Man is endowed by his creator with certain inalienable rights....") It seems to me, the little I know about the Nazis, it is universal human rights being discussed. (Not just the rights of citizen only, as in the U.S. Bill of Rights).

The history is a bit complicated, but I think it is clearer to see it as being founded in the 13th century with Aquinas' idea that "natural law" is accessible to human reason than from the Magna Carta. But it is a long climb from there to the Declaration of Rights of Man and Citizen.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:43 AM   #20
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Yes it does, but more specifically, the question is regarding the term "human rights". As a concept of a body of rights to which all humans are entitled, and with the specific label of "human rights" attached, I'm not sure that does predate WW2.

It may be a quirk of translation, since Schellenberg was speaking in German.
It was usually called "the Rights of Man" calling it "Human Rights" is only a semantic change. The United Nations is also not the source of any Human Rights as they're Legal Positivists, so any thing they claim as a Human Right they see as subjective and derived only from Law they create and can uncreate of change based upon their whim. The opposite to them is Natural Law, which are the first questions that Ethics/Humanism has to discover. The Natural Law movement is at least as old as the 12th century in Europe and Magna Carta was using Natural Law and was much superior to anything that came after it.

There is a problem with explaining Natural Law though and that's that the Catholic Church has used the term (Thomas Aquinas), however they don't really believe in Natural Law either. They too are Legal Positivists and Aquinas merely transfered the arbitrary law giving to God and the Church.

Proper Natural Law is discovered by reason and not faith and morals. The morality derived from Natural Law is objective and based on the Nature of reality and the Human mind. It is true whether or not God or a government exists and is to be practiced always.
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