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Old September 10th, 2017, 02:16 PM   #31

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It's worth noting that Schellenberg is not on trial here - he is appearing as a witness.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 02:23 PM   #32

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A part that he ended his life in Italy [at Turin], after living just here at Verbania [what a coincidence], the Justice Court condemned him anyway to be imprisoned for 6 years. So we could say that he was an "interested" witness well aware that he had to be careful about how he presented his own experience and how he talked about how the concentration camps worked.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #33

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What we can add about his role in the last phases of the conflict [and this was among the reasons why the Court wasn't severe with him] is that he tried and find a way to reach a ceasefire and a peace with the allies.

He made some attempts to persuade Himmler and he personally met Folke Bernadotte [and he got captured in Denmark where he was trying and finding a separated peace with the Americans].
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Old September 11th, 2017, 04:59 AM   #34

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Thanks Carolus, that helps to clear things up a bit.

So if I understand correctly, what he's saying in the first instance is that, if the Reichsführer-SS had come to an agreement with the Allies, then the evacuation of the camps was morally wrong?
I would prefer "...the evacuation of the camps was wrong from a human rights point of view".

The crucial point is the translation and interpretation of "menschenrechtlich". If he had only said "rechtlich", then the translation would be "legally". The term "menschenrechtlich" also implies morality.

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Ah, someone who speaks German. Would you say this German to English translation of the first quote is accurate? (I got it from Google translate):

"I would like to interpret this in such a way that, if the binding declaration of the then Reichsführer SS was handed over to international allied parties by international personalities, the concentration camps were not to be evacuated because of the plight, it was just humanly binding"
yes, but menschenrechtlich consists of two words: menschen (human) + rechtlich (right or legal).
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Old September 11th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #35

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Human rights and WW2


Interesting topic aside from the need to go back to the Magna Carta :-)

Viewed in the context of the War, imo you look to the Four Freedoms & Atlantic Charter declarations as precursors to 48 UN Charter.

For example from FDR's 6 Jan 41 speech:

"Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change in a perpetual peaceful revolution, a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.
This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. To that high concept there can be no end save victory."

Most likely that anyone in the dock or facing the possibility would have been aware of both of these events.





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Last edited by jgrooms; September 11th, 2017 at 08:25 AM.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #36

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Ah, now that's interesting. I didn't know FDR had used that precise term in 1941. Thanks!
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Old September 11th, 2017, 09:02 AM   #37

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"quietly adjusting to changing conditions without the concentration camp..." didn't quite workout for FDR though.

Also, the NAZI's are well versed in the legalese of persecution.

https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/...=1000389639462

I think there is a good book in the making, "From Nuremberg to Nuremburg..."




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Old September 11th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #38
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For example from FDR's 6 Jan 41 speech:

"Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change in a perpetual peaceful revolution, a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.
This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. To that high concept there can be no end save victory."

Most likely that anyone in the dock or facing the possibility would have been aware of both of these events.
Probably not, its more likely it was so obscure that no one understood the term "human rights" when FDR used in 1941... or when Thomas Paine used it in The Rights of Man in the 1790s and the U.S. abolitionist newspaperman William Lloyd Garrison used it in his paper The Liberator in the 1830s.

I just can't figure out why those three men from three different centuries would suspect their readership would understand that phrase. Its such a puzzle.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 09:40 AM   #39

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Probably not, its more likely it was so obscure that no one understood the term "human rights" when FDR used in 1941... or when Thomas Paine used it in The Rights of Man in the 1790s and the U.S. abolitionist newspaperman William Lloyd Garrison used it in his paper The Liberator in the 1830s.



I just can't figure out why those three men from three different centuries would suspect their readership would understand that phrase. Its such a puzzle.


Well it wasn't particularly "obscure" as it comes at the conclusion & point of emphasis to a State of the Union Address & makes direct ref to Germany via "concentration camps".

While it may have been passed over at the time, without doubt his lawyers knew of it.

Hitler's policy re genocide was to tie everyone to it. There was to be no negotiated settlement. It was victory or death and even if you survived the war, the crimes of the state would do you in.

For example, 25 Oct 1941 WSC/FDR issue "retribution" statements. Followed by declaration of St James 13 Jan 1942, which is precursor to UNWCC.

So to believe that high ranking NAZI officials were not thinking of ways to survive is to discount human nature in general.

However, to the OP original, did the phrase exist in context of the war prior to UN48? Yes and no less a member of the Big Three.





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Old September 11th, 2017, 10:32 AM   #40
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Well it wasn't particularly "obscure" as it comes at the conclusion & point of emphasis to a State of the Union Address & makes direct ref to Germany via "concentration camps".
I was being facetious when I called it obscure (I guess I need to practice up on that). My point was that since the Enlightenment, the phrase "human rights," and the synonymous "natural rights" and "inalienable rights," were well known to educated people in the countries involved in the Enlightenment, and that included Germany. When Paine said "human rights" no one had any trouble associating that with Locke and Kant's "natural rights" theory, any more than Americans would have trouble associating Garrison's use of the the term with Jefferson's "inalienable rights."

It is not the least bit mysterious to me that the German would have understood the phrase exactly as Americans, British, and French did from the 1780s until today. And that would include all contexts including despotic monarchs, slavery, and world wars with genocide.
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