Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum - Perennial Ideas and Debates that cross societal/time boundaries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 22nd, 2017, 04:50 PM   #41

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Why win their hearts? They're the ones being irrational and being far more abusive towards Romanians in Szekelyfold than Romanians are to Hungarians in Romania.

We are in the EU. There are clear and strict EU laws about minority rights. I'm unaware of the EU ever saying we aren't respecting the rights of Hungarians.
Quote:
(and not just 1 symbolic MP as other minorities).
You do realise that's positive discrimination, right? Croatia is the only other country with such a system.

We even had arguments with the EU about keeping those rights for minorities (the EU wanted us to get rid of them).

Btw, our President is an ethnic German Protestant. UDMR has been in the opposition for only 6 years (without supporting the Government). Minorities don't get symbolic rights in Romania. They get rights.

Can you point to a far-right or nationalist government of Romania after 1989? It seems to me that Hungarians are the ones with a far-right nationalism problem and Romania is doing fine and respecting minority rights. We haven't had a far-right party in Parliament since 2008. What about Hungary?

Last edited by Offspring; September 22nd, 2017 at 05:09 PM.
Offspring is offline  
Remove Ads
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:03 PM   #42

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Also, I'm saying that I no longer believe UDMR has the best interest of the country in mind and only wants the rights of minorities to be respected, after I actually believed they were being honest in the past (voted for them twice -EU and Presidential elections; it was the most pro-EU party and I was more pro-EU back then + the two guys that made it were fine; Kelemen Hunor was the least unintelligent candidate- and said György Frunda is the Romanian politician I trust the most, when asked for a poll; I still like Frunda; I'm ethnic Romanian). I'm not coming at this as someone with some anti-UDMR bias. I'm a disappointed voter and someone who is tired of phony arguments about discrimination suffered by Hungarians.

Last edited by Offspring; September 22nd, 2017 at 05:14 PM.
Offspring is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:17 PM   #43
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Western Eurasia
Posts: 3,539

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offspring View Post
You have Romanians in Transylvania as an example and I explained why it's wrong.

I'm not talking about people in general. I'm talking about nationalists. If a Hungarian wants to live in a state where Hungarians are an ethnic majority, Hungary exists.
Or they can choose the way of political activism in their native homeland.

Quote:
In International Law, this actually does count. It's easier for an ethnicity to argue about a homeland (a state where they are the majority) than for an ethnicity to get a second one. The fact that Albania exists was a very strong argument against Kosovo's independence. The fact that there are talks about Greater Albania (those two uniting) shows how good the argument was.
The main argument against Kosovo's independence is that it was declared unilaterally, not that there is already another Albanian polity, in practice international law is quite vague on it (on purpose) who has the right for "self determination." Starting with what constitutes a "people". Can argue that Kosovars are a people on their own, we have seen those things in the neighborhood (Macedonians vs Bulgarians, Moldovans vs Romanians)
For separatists i would advise to play safe, first achive your independence, then worry about international recognitions, don't count on whatever international courts to do the work on your place
Tulun is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:24 PM   #44

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
Or they can choose the way of political activism in their native homeland.
And lose.
Quote:
The main argument against Kosovo's independence is that it was declared unilaterally, not that there is already another Albanian polity
When did I say it was the main argument?
Quote:
Moldovans vs Romanians
Are Hungarians in Romania saying they aren't Hungarians? Afaik, plenty of Moldavians don't consider themselves Romanian (I'm not talking about the ones with an obvious non-Romanian ethnicity). 6 out of 7 in rural areas think the Moldavian language isn't Romanian and most Moldavians don't want to unify. You're bad with comparisons.
Offspring is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:38 PM   #45
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Western Eurasia
Posts: 3,539

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offspring View Post
Why win their hearts? They're the ones being irrational and being far more abusive towards Romanians in Szekelyfold than Romanians are to Hungarians in Romania.
I don't know comparative poll measures on it who hates the other more, Székelys are your fellow citizens though, so i guess it would be the best interest for Romanians to make all their citizens happy.

Quote:
We are in the EU. There are clear and strict EU laws about minority rights. I'm unaware of the EU ever saying we aren't respecting the rights of Hungarians.You do realise that's positive discrimination, right? Croatia is the only other country with such a system.
and other countries also have positive discriminatory system for the minorities parliamentary representation (Hungary and Slovenia too). But in practice 1 single mp doesn't make spring, and i'm sure the RMDSZ/UDMR has more weight in the parliament with its 6+% of votes then lets say the Armenian minority's 1 representative I just raised the whole issue to reflect on why do all Hungarians vote in a block to the RMDSZ. To maximalize representation.


Quote:
Btw, our President is an ethnic German Protestant. UDMR has been in the opposition for only 6 years (without supporting the Government). Minorities don't get symbolic rights in Romania. They get rights.
Well it is good (a minimum) that it is not prohibited for an ethnic minority person to run for office.

Quote:
Can you point to a far-right or nationalist government of Romania after 1989? It seems to me that Hungarians are the ones with a far-right nationalism problem and Romania is doing fine and respecting minority rights. We haven't had a far-right party in Parliament since 2008. What about Hungary?
Yep in Romania the far right was stronger in the 1990s and 2000s (PRM and the soc-dems had some of their figures too) now i don't know how nationalist the Romanian political discourse, i don't follow that deeply their politics, only the occassional oddities reach me (last i remember Basescu said something about Romanian borders to the Tisza, but i don't know if he was drunk?).

but i don't doubt since the middle of 2000s (2006 is a turning point in Hun internal politics) Hungary is worser, to the point that now we have far-right regime.
Tulun is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:45 PM   #46

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
I don't know comparative poll measures on it who hates the other more, Székelys are your fellow citizens though, so i guess it would be the best interest for Romanians to make all their citizens happy.
Please stop changing words if you want me to continue to interact with you. You already switched "strong argument" with "main argument" earlier. I'm talking about behaviour, not feelings.
Quote:
and other countries also have positive discriminatory system for the minorities parliamentary representation (Hungary and Slovenia too). But in practice 1 single mp doesn't make spring, and i'm sure the RMDSZ/UDMR has more weight in the parliament with its 6+% of votes then lets say the Armenian minority's 1 representative I just raised the whole issue to reflect on why do all Hungarians vote in a block to the RMDSZ. To maximalize representation.
What system do Hungary and Slovenia have?

What did voting for UDMR achieve? Have you been to Szekelyfold? Have you seen how it looks?

Also, are Armenians being discriminated? What would happen with Hungarians if they only got one Hungarian MP?
Quote:
Well it is good (a minimum) that it is not prohibited for an ethnic minority person to run for office.
Minorities have full rights (more than in most countries).
Quote:
Yep in Romania the far right was stronger in the 1990s and 2000s
And never got power.
Offspring is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 05:53 PM   #47

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Deleted.

Last edited by Offspring; September 22nd, 2017 at 06:00 PM.
Offspring is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 06:03 PM   #48
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Western Eurasia
Posts: 3,539

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offspring View Post
Please stop changing words if you want me to continue to interact with you. You already switched "strong argument" with "main argument" earlier. I'm talking about behaviour, not feelings.
still I don't possess the statistics to compare if Hungarians in Romania are more abusive (what you claimed as i understand) or the other way around. (I didn't claim anything on this subject)

Quote:
What system do Hungary and Slovenia have?
In Hungary minorities have a lower threshold to gain a full mandate (with voting power and everything like other mps). if they still don't reach that lower voter number, then they get a minority speaker (each 13 minority 1-1), who in this case doesn't have voting right but otherwise can participate in the parliamentary work. This is the case now, non of the minorities reached the lower threesold due to low participation on voting to minority candidates, so now they only have these minority speakers.

In Slovenia Italians and Hungarians have 1-1 representative by law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Slovenia i don't know the full method there, probably more similar to the Romanian way.
Quote:
What did voting for UDMR achieve? Have you been to Szekelyfold? Have you seen how it looks?
As a tourist i had, i liked the towns i visited but of course i can't measure the quality of life just by a short visit (especially since i haven't been in the Regat to make comparisons. So i can only say that i enjoyed my stay there and found it nice. And as being from the hilly and plain Hungary, of couse the mountains caught my eyes the most.

Last edited by Tulun; September 22nd, 2017 at 06:11 PM.
Tulun is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 06:13 PM   #49

Offspring's Avatar
Internet Zombie
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: România
Posts: 7,317
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
I don't possess the statistics to compare if Hungarians in Romania are more abusive then the other way around. i actually haven't accused Romania with anything.
Well, this did sound a bit accusatory: "Well it is good (a minimum) that it is not prohibited for an ethnic minority person to run for office."

Btw, there's one thing to be able to run for office and another to win the most important position. I don't see an ethnic minority doing that in Hungary any time soon.
Quote:
In Hungary minorities have a lower threshold to gain a full mandate. if they still don't reach that lower voter number, then they get a minority speaker (each 13 minority one), who doesn't have voting right but otherwise can participate in the parliamentary work. This is the case now, non of the minorities reached the lower threesold due to low participation on voting to minority candidates, so now they only have these minority speakers.
That's less than what they get in Romania.

Slovenia has two seats for minorities, we have 17 + UDMR.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware. I got the Croatia thing from Frunda.
Quote:
As a tourist i had, i liked the towns i visited but of course i can't measure the quality of life just by a short visit (especially since i haven't been in the Regat to make comparisons. So i can only say that i enjoyed my stay there.
I was there a few times. Always enjoyed it. The people were nice, as was the scenery. However, some parts look awful (obviously, not the tourist attractions).

Did people complain about discrimination?

Last edited by Offspring; September 22nd, 2017 at 06:23 PM.
Offspring is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 06:37 PM   #50

VHS's Avatar
VHS
Vague Historical Studies
 
Joined: Dec 2015
From: Orion Arm
Posts: 3,779
Blog Entries: 2

Click the image to open in full size.


Will this turn you into this:

Click the image to open in full size.
VHS is online now  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology

Tags
advantages



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are there advantages to being shy? Jake10 Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 29 April 30th, 2013 02:00 AM
Advantages of self-deception Rosi Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 12 March 12th, 2010 07:25 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.