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Old October 30th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #21

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Old October 31st, 2017, 12:54 AM   #22

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Thank you. I was under the impression that at least in Athens, homosexuality was accepted. I did read that homosexuality in Rome was considered a disgrace, but only if you are at the receiving end. I will have to look up Cicero's criticism of Cataline even when the latter was in a dominant position, for you mentioned how even the dominant position would still be looked down upon. That is, unless you have the quote to that readily available already? Would save me the trouble.
Sure thing. I have truly read a vast number of the ancient texts, and my conclusion is that a lot of what we think we know about the ancient world is entirely a fiction of modern scholars projecting their own fantasies. Like I said, not one positive mention of homosexuality in any Greek or Roman text I have ever read.

Not a single act of filthy lechery had been committed without him being its guiding spirit. For no one had ever had such a talent for seducing young men. He himself became the lover of a number of them in the most repulsive fashion, and he himself disgustingly allowed others to make love to himself .
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Old October 31st, 2017, 12:59 AM   #23

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Nobody condemned Hadrian for his affair with Antinous, even after Hadrian had died, except of course Christians when they got power as they had hang ups about sex and nudity, which some still do. Nobody questioned that a city, Antinopolis, be founded and named for Antinous. Nobody questioned that there be a popular cult of Antinous, except to suggest, as Julian the "apostate" did, doubts about his apotheosis. Nobody condemned Trajan, who along with Hadrian are recognized as two of the best emperors, though in these odd times we live in I have no doubt that soon enough some "right on" university will declare them to be non persons, and after all, they are DWEMs, oh the horror.....

DIO ON TRAJAN...

IT WAS A FAULT IN HIM THAT HE WAS A HEAVY DRINKER AND ALSO A PEDERAST...

Not only a criticism of Trajan for homsexuality, but again, so much again for the idea that the shame was only for the passive.

Other sources, by the way, say that Trajan was completely chaste when not with his wife. I have not read them in entirely, do not own the books, and cannot cite them off hand. But I know they exist.

THE AUGUSTINE SCRIBE ON HADRIAN

IN FACT THIS PRACTIVE HAS BEEN REGARDED AS A BAD FAULT IN HADRIAN; ADDED TO THIS ARE THE ASSERTIONS ABOUT HIS PASSIONS FOR ADULT MALES...

It also says that he adopted a boy "against the wishes of all" only because of his beauty, and it does mention Antinous and Hadrian's "excessive sensuality." But the tale of Antinous trails off as if the author did not wish to talk about it any further and left it incomplete on purpose. Curious, as there is the hint of human sacrifice.

You see again--you have to read the actual texts and not go by modern "scholars," who basically just make things up.

Last edited by cachibatches; October 31st, 2017 at 01:52 AM.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 01:04 AM   #24

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No need to be sorry its your opinion backed up by some sources, however i really don't think its quite that simple especially in the case of long term empire like Rome, the republican period wsas much diferent then the Imperial one and late christianization also changed things.
I have cited about a dozen sources, some showing that homosexulity was illegal in Rome and Sparta. Can you cite a single source saying that it was celebrated AS A CULTURAL VALUE in Rome, Sparta, or Athens?

The emphasis is there because whenever I try to tell the truth about this subject, someone inevitably posts a vase depicting homosexual acts or a letter that a man wrote to a man. Of course there were always homosexuals, and of course they always wrote love letters and owned pornography. The issue here is that these societies always considered it to be wrong, not that individuals practised it.

Last edited by cachibatches; October 31st, 2017 at 01:31 AM.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 02:54 AM   #25

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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
DIO ON TRAJAN...

IT WAS A FAULT IN HIM THAT HE WAS A HEAVY DRINKER AND ALSO A PEDERAST...

Not only a criticism of Trajan for homsexuality, but again, so much again for the idea that the shame was only for the passive.

Other sources, by the way, say that Trajan was completely chaste when not with his wife. I have not read them in entirely, do not own the books, and cannot cite them off hand. But I know they exist.

THE AUGUSTINE SCRIBE ON HADRIAN

IN FACT THIS PRACTIVE HAS BEEN REGARDED AS A BAD FAULT IN HADRIAN; ADDED TO THIS ARE THE ASSERTIONS ABOUT HIS PASSIONS FOR ADULT MALES...

It also says that he adopted a boy "against the wishes of all" only because of his beauty, and it does mention Antinous and Hadrian's "excessive sensuality." But the tale of Antinous trails off as if the author did not wish to talk about it any further and left it incomplete on purpose. Curious, as there is the hint of human sacrifice.

You see again--you have to read the actual texts and not go by modern "scholars," who basically just make things up.
Oh I'm sorry, could you speak up as I don't think you shouted loudly enough, from behind your mental brick wall....
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Old October 31st, 2017, 11:22 AM   #26

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Oh I'm sorry, could you speak up as I don't think you shouted loudly enough, from behind your mental brick wall....
I did not mean to shout, I just put capitals to delineate the quote. Perhaps you would have liked to have seen the truth in quotations. Fair enough.

As for mental brick wall, physcian, heal thyself. I was correcting your mistakes with sources, which is how history is done. Now you know the truth. We cannot shy from the truth because it is painful or contradicts what we thought we previously knew.

You took a shot, and found that you were 180 degrees incorrect. If you think that you can refute a single further thing that I have said, be my guest. If not, the ad hominem is not appropriate. We are talking about how the ancients felt, not how you feel.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 11:44 AM   #27

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And do you think these straight men who want conversion therapy start off by thinking "Hmm, what does this mean in terms of competition for mates, evolution and survival of the fittest"?
As a straight man, I'd be thinking: " it's great that some men take themselves out of the competition for women because it means relatively more women for me."

In other words, the premise of the OP is flawed.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 12:44 PM   #28

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Evolutionarily, we developed a need for control, and prejudices/biases. that's imho all there is to it.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 12:46 PM   #29

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I did not mean to shout, I just put capitals to delineate the quote. Perhaps you would have liked to have seen the truth in quotations. Fair enough.

As for mental brick wall, physcian, heal thyself. I was correcting your mistakes with sources, which is how history is done. Now you know the truth. We cannot shy from the truth because it is painful or contradicts what we thought we previously knew.

You took a shot, and found that you were 180 degrees incorrect. If you think that you can refute a single further thing that I have said, be my guest. If not, the ad hominem is not appropriate. We are talking about how the ancients felt, not how you feel.
I suggest that an any hominems here are from you. You are being rude and are ranting, and you are clearly obsessed with this topic in a way that I am most certainly not. Take a chill pill or something....

Last edited by Corvidius; October 31st, 2017 at 01:17 PM.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 03:56 PM   #30

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Quite a few years ago, I knew a designer who was gay. He was very successful and influential in the Austin Texas area and threw great parties.

While there were some 'straight' men at these parties they were heavily slanted towards gay men as these were the type of men that he liked being around.

Even though I was completely hetrosexual and had no interest in men, I went to every one of these parties that I could.

For one: they were great parties. Second: they were full of women who weren't being adequately paid attention to.

Muhahahahahaaaa....

Sure, I got quite a bit of attention from gay men at these parties and the occasional pat on the but from some guy, but that was fine, the 'smorgasbord' of hot, fine, ladies more than made up for it.

Viva la gay men!
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