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Old December 28th, 2017, 05:13 AM   #321
Hellenist
 
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Originally Posted by David Vagamundo View Post
I do agree that morals are a matter of cause and effect and logic. But unfortunately, we do not experience the "effect" until long after having chosen the "cause," and we will not listen to our elders who have enough experience to know what the effect of our actions will be. Each generation has to make the same mistakes for itself.
Whoo, are you sure about that? That would mean democracy is impossible and there is no good alternative to powerful authoritarianism. How far do you want to take that?

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We humans also have an almost infinite capacity for persuading ourselves by force of "logic" that what we want to do is good.
That is why decisions need to be made by the whole of the population instead of dictators, and it is why we have protected freedom of speech, but that must be meaningful freedom of speech and we do not have that. When something is up for a vote we all need to discuss it, and that means many hours and maybe many months of discussing the issues. It does not mean having 3 minutes to say something in a public hearing, and then standing outside the building and cussing because of feeling your effort to make a difference was futile.

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I'm Roman Catholic (converted) and am impressed by how logical the moral views of the RC Church are. If you accept the premises of the faith--perhaps first and most important being that human life is a precious gift of God-- the morals follow quite logically.
I will hold my tongue. There is a tiny problem with stopping at life is a precious. It is called overpopulation.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 05:40 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by sparky View Post
.
a traditional form of passing morality to children , beside spanking , was children tales
they often are quite dark with ogres as archetype for violent men and witches or evil step mother a thinly disguised portrayal of mothers .
some form of clever cheating is usually praised as smart ,while abandonning one's children in the forest is seen as an unfortunate necessity

should those ancestral tales be purged , some new correctness could see Barbie the doll become president
I am not sure Hansel and Gretel would be classified as a moral story? There is an important difference between telling stories to control a child by fear, or telling stories to encourage good moral judgment. Fearing imaginary monsters is not logical. It is reactive like the sound of a gun gets a reaction. What we want for good moral judgment is more like figuring out a math problem. This causes that or 2 plus 2 equals 4.

What I have said is the same reason I have a problem with religion. A jealous, revengeful, punishing and fearsome god, is the role model of an abusive husband. For over a thousand years people lived with fear of God and Satan. Newton and those who followed the path science changed all that.

While we maintain religion is the answer, we argue humans are not capable of good judgment. Is that good logic? If the children in my family use that logic, this grandma is going to talk about math and logic and what makes humans different from animals. If we repeat a lie enough, everyone will believe it, and that may not be the best way to have a democracy? Youth is apt to have bad judgment and that is why some laws are tied to age. However, a society of people in full-grown bodies still being as irresponsible as youth is not the goal of democracy. The masses being dependent on a superman or supernatural being because they are as children beneath the king or God, is not a democratic ideal.

Folktales are amusing and some do tell us of virtues, but they should not be confused with math and science and we should not focus a society on obedience instead of responsibility. And that opinion stands behind my notion that not everything we say is correctly protected freedom of speech. We need to accept responsibility for our words and deeds and not everyone does that.

Last edited by athena; December 28th, 2017 at 05:46 AM.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 08:49 AM   #323

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Whoo, are you sure about that? That would mean democracy is impossible and there is no good alternative to powerful authoritarianism. How far do you want to take that? . . .

.
I'm talking about morals, not about law. As a lawyer, I learned long ago that they are not at all the same.
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