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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
I am a latecomer to this thread, but I want to say my bit.
In our youth, we are all idealistic and we easily believe in Communism. We feel that economic exploitation of the poor is the root cause of human misery and once equity is established all will be well. As we grow up, we realize that things as complicated as poverty and human greed need far better solutions than killing off the rich and expropriation of their properties. We realize the human dimensions of the problem far better than in our youth; such as the desire to manage creatively our own affairs, our spiritual needs like freedom, love, companionship etc.
We see what a mess was made in the French Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution or in the oppressive rule in the ' Worker's Paradise '.
And we can hardly wait for AI to take control.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:14 AM   #32

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And we can hardly wait for AI to take control.
Not me, AI is a horrible mistake waiting to happen.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:18 AM   #33

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Not me, AI is a horrible mistake waiting to happen.
@athena and Total Aaron,
I do not think we should worry about Artificial Intelligence taking over human society. That is an exaggeration and more Scientific Fiction than a real possibility. We have the electrical switches in our hands and Robots require electrical charge to do their work.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:25 AM   #34

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Sufficiently intelligent robots would have no trouble over-riding our "cut-off switch" for one that is under their own control. Even if they couldn't, it is ridiculously easy to exploit the human element. The simplest is to threaten harm to the controller's loved ones: "give me the control codes: or your children die." Humans are always going to be the weakest point in any security system.

Asimov explored lots of different worlds where AI and robots did most of the work. Read about his Solaria. Automated labour combined with declining fertility rates mean that there is a real possibility that this could be our own world.

Last edited by Dan Howard; December 19th, 2017 at 06:35 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:44 AM   #35
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In continuation of my post no.27 above, I want to quote Orlando Figes from his book ' A People's Tragedy The Russian Revolution 1891-1924 ' , published by Penguin Books, 1998, ISBN 978-0-14-024364-2. He says on page 823 , regarding the Russian Revolution, that " The experiment went horribly wrong, not so much because of the malice of its leaders, most of whom had started out with the highest ideals, but because the ideals were themselves impossible.------The state , however big, cannot make people equal or better human beings. All it can do is to treat its citizens equally and strive to ensure that their free activities are directed towards the general good. "
I do have some arguments to your points here. I am in favor of a strong reliance on science for shaping our opinions of the human condition. What makes us different from each other? What are the values of our differences?

A goal of democracy is not equality because we are as different as the gods, and each one has value. However, a goal of democracy is equal opportunity. At the very least that means adequate nutrition and equal education for all up to about grade 8 and then perhaps separate education for vocations or college is a good thing? Some would say equal opportunity also means diverse neighborhoods and avoiding clumping people together in rich and poor neighborhoods.

Obviously, a government needs to play a strong role in setting the conditions of equality, because there cannot be equal opportunity without governing for it. I don't think that is impossible.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:50 AM   #36

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Originally Posted by Dan Howard View Post
Sufficiently intelligent robots would have no trouble over-riding our "cut-off switch" for one that is under their own control. Even if they couldn't, it is ridiculously easy to exploit the human element. The simplest is to threaten harm to the controller's loved ones: "give me the control codes: or your children die." Humans are always going to be the weakest point in any security system.

Asimov explored lots of different worlds where AI and robots did most of the work. Read about his Solaria. Automated labour combined with declining fertility rates mean that there is a real possibility that this could be our own world.
For the Robot would be killer to make its threat work, it would require nutrition in the form of electricity. We refuse to supply it the electricity required.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:59 AM   #37

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For the Robot would be killer to make its threat work, it would require nutrition in the form of electricity. We refuse to supply it the electricity required.
How do you propose to do this? There will be no such thing as centralised power generation. Every building in a city will have its own power plant consisting of a combination of solar panels, batteries, piezo generators, wind turbines, fuel cells, etc. The very roads and footpaths themselves will be power generators. Further miniaturisation will enable every vehicle and robot to be fitted with its own self-contained power plant. It won't be possible to withhold electricity from it.

Last edited by Dan Howard; December 19th, 2017 at 07:11 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #38
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@athena and Total Aaron,
I do not think we should worry about Artificial Intelligence taking over human society. That is an exaggeration and more Scientific Fiction than a real possibility. We have the electrical switches in our hands and Robots require electrical charge to do their work.
I love debating with you. For me, the purpose of arguing AI is determining human value and what does paradise mean? And most importantly, does our liberty have value? If we want liberty, I think we need to establish some protections. Education for liberty means education for good moral judgment and is the first thing we must do to protect our liberty.

An Indian seer and poet said. "Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal, and therefore, completely effective in crushing individual liberty and power." We defended our democracy against that in two world wars and then we imitated Germany in every significant way. The facts do not get people's attention so we remain unaware of major change. At the moment it really doesn't matter if AI is in charge or not, because we have already given up our liberty and responsibility for self-government. But AI catches people's imagination and makes it possible to discuss our liberty.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #39
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Not me, AI is a horrible mistake waiting to happen.
Refer back to my explanation to rvsakhadeo. The subject of AI control is really a matter of our liberty and we are failing to protect our liberty from the Borg that is already in control. Our military does not depend on so much on our sons willing to go to war, and the rest of us manning the industry that a major war requires, as it did in the past world wars, and it is no longer under our control. Our military depends on our economic support of it, and if we understood that, we might think differently about the economic decisions.

Speaking of thinking of economic decisions, that is what this thread is supposed to be about. It has occurred to me, maybe people are not on topic because they do not know the different economic systems.

This looks like a better way to understand our economic choices. The following is from this site https://www.intelligenteconomist.com...-of-economies/

Quote:
(1)
The traditional economic system is the most traditional and ancient types of economies in the world. Vast portions of the world still function under a traditional economic system. These areas tend to be rural, second- or third-world, and closely tied to the land, usually through farming. In general, in this type of economic system, a surplus would be rare. Each member of a traditional economy has a more specific and pronounced role, and these societies tend to be very close-knit and socially satisfied. However, they do lack access to technology and advanced medicine.

(2)
In a command economic system, a large part of the economic system is controlled by a centralized power. For example, in the USSR most decisions were made by the central government. This type of economy was the core of the communist philosophy.

(3)
In a free market economy, firms and households act in self-interest to determine how resources get allocated, what goods get produced and who buys the goods. This is opposite to how a command economy works, where the central government gets to keep the profits.

(4)
A mixed economy is a combination of different types of economic systems. This economic system is a cross between a market economy and command economy. In the most common types of mixed economies, the market is more or less free of government ownership except for a few key areas like transportation or sensitive industries like defense and railroad.
Personally, I think all natural resources should be publically owned, and managed by private contractors who can be replaced as our elected representatives can be replaced. Water, electricity, phone and internet service, all being publically owned utilities. In every neighborhood, there should be housing reserved for low-income people sufficient enough to house all the low-income people upon whom our standard of living depends.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #40

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Refer back to my explanation to rvsakhadeo. The subject of AI control is really a matter of our liberty and we are failing to protect our liberty from the Borg that is already in control. Our military does not depend on so much on our sons willing to go to war, and the rest of us manning the industry that a major war requires, as it did in the past world wars, and it is no longer under our control. Our military depends on our economic support of it, and if we understood that, we might think differently about the economic decisions.

Speaking of thinking of economic decisions, that is what this thread is supposed to be about. It has occurred to me, maybe people are not on topic because they do not know the different economic systems.

This looks like a better way to understand our economic choices. The following is from this site https://www.intelligenteconomist.com...-of-economies/



Personally, I think all natural resources should be publically owned, and managed by private contractors who can be replaced as our elected representatives can be replaced. Water, electricity, phone and internet service, all being publically owned utilities. In every neighborhood, there should be housing reserved for low-income people sufficient enough to house all the low-income people upon whom our standard of living depends.
Good summary Athena. We in the US--as in most developed economies today-are in the "mixed" category.

Don't agree with public ownership of natural resources or utilities because then politicians and bureaucrats try to allocate resources based on their priorities. Utilities should be regulated, but I have seen no empirical evidence that publicly owned utilities do a better job than privately held ones.

BTW--the way to get to affordable housing for lower income people is to repeal or waive a lot of the provisions of zoning and housing codes. Most of us don't need the kind of homes dictated by these laws; there is a practical line somewhere between a corrugated shack (or a bed in the homeless shelter) and a Dunwoody (or name upscale Seattle suburb of your choice) four bedroom, three and a half bath home.
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