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Old December 19th, 2017, 03:33 PM   #41
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@athena and Total Aaron,
I do not think we should worry about Artificial Intelligence taking over human society. That is an exaggeration and more Scientific Fiction than a real possibility. We have the electrical switches in our hands and Robots require electrical charge to do their work.
Have you heard about this?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/414162...-own-language/
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:26 PM   #42

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@athena and Total Aaron,
I do not think we should worry about Artificial Intelligence taking over human society. That is an exaggeration and more Scientific Fiction than a real possibility. We have the electrical switches in our hands and Robots require electrical charge to do their work.
You are describing the kind that follow set paths, make binary decisions, following a linear path of if-statements, or execute complex algorithms and functions (still set and limited by humans). These are fast and intelligent (do what we program to do but just at greater speed), but they are not learners.

You have to consider the AI that learn and adapt.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:59 PM   #43

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You are describing the kind that follow set paths, make binary decisions, following a linear path of if-statements, or execute complex algorithms and functions (still set and limited by humans). These are fast and intelligent (do what we program to do but just at greater speed), but they are not learners.

You have to consider the AI that learn and adapt.
Yes, they might be advanced versions of Robots, who are learners but they still need to be activated. And when activated, need Electricity to work. So what's there to worry about ?
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Old December 20th, 2017, 02:33 AM   #44

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I do have some arguments to your points here. I am in favor of a strong reliance on science for shaping our opinions of the human condition. What makes us different from each other? What are the values of our differences?

A goal of democracy is not equality because we are as different as the gods, and each one has value. However, a goal of democracy is equal opportunity. At the very least that means adequate nutrition and equal education for all up to about grade 8 and then perhaps separate education for vocations or college is a good thing? Some would say equal opportunity also means diverse neighborhoods and avoiding clumping people together in rich and poor neighborhoods.

Obviously, a government needs to play a strong role in setting the conditions of equality, because there cannot be equal opportunity without governing for it. I don't think that is impossible.
Equalization of opportunity can be ensured by a Government run on democratic principles. That is the theory. In practice, it may not be so.
After all, why did it take so long for the democratic government of U.K. to allow universal suffrage i.e. equal rights for women and men to vote in the elections to the Parliament ? I think Ms. Emily Pankhurst, agitating for the suffrage was killed when she threw herself before the carriage of the King. Only then the right to vote was granted to women.
Or why did it take it so long for the USA to have integrated schools where the blacks and the white children could be educated together.
Or take an Indian example. India went on reorganising the states on linguistic basis. The state of Madras was , however comprised of two groups speaking different languages, Tamil and Telugu. This state was not bifurcated for reasons best known to the powers that be. There was an agitation for a separate Telugu speaking state and one Potti Sriramulu died fasting for the Telugu state. Only then the Govt. of India bifurcated the state and created a separate state for the Telugu speaking people. Man's nature cannot be changed by law. It takes time and slow persuasion. Equality cannot be ensured by ' diktat '.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 02:56 AM   #45

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Yes, I read the link, thanks. But the dialogue does not prove that the two robots understood each other. They might speaking gibberish as per their level of learning and a meaningful dialogue might not have taken place. And after a while, the experimenters stopped the experiment, did they not ? The control of the energy required by the robots for their performance is always in human hands.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #46

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Yes, they might be advanced versions of Robots, who are learners but they still need to be activated. And when activated, need Electricity to work. So what's there to worry about ?
Robots will be able to get electricity from anywhere. You can't simply turn off the electricity supply because there will be no such thing as centralised power generation. Some robots will be able to generate their own electricity from self-contained power supplies. This can be done right now with a combination of fuel cells and photovoltaic panels.

Last edited by Dan Howard; December 20th, 2017 at 07:32 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 07:47 AM   #47
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Equalization of opportunity can be ensured by a Government run on democratic principles. That is the theory. In practice, it may not be so.
After all, why did it take so long for the democratic government of U.K. to allow universal suffrage i.e. equal rights for women and men to vote in the elections to the Parliament ? I think Ms. Emily Pankhurst, agitating for the suffrage was killed when she threw herself before the carriage of the King. Only then the right to vote was granted to women.
Or why did it take it so long for the USA to have integrated schools where the blacks and the white children could be educated together.
Or take an Indian example. India went on reorganising the states on linguistic basis. The state of Madras was , however comprised of two groups speaking different languages, Tamil and Telugu. This state was not bifurcated for reasons best known to the powers that be. There was an agitation for a separate Telugu speaking state and one Potti Sriramulu died fasting for the Telugu state. Only then the Govt. of India bifurcated the state and created a separate state for the Telugu speaking people. Man's nature cannot be changed by law. It takes time and slow persuasion. Equality cannot be ensured by ' diktat '.
Democracy is equal to religion in that it does not instantly make everyone the ideal of the religion or ideology. We must learn the principles of democracy and we must discuss what democracy is and how it might be manifest, for our understanding of it to take hold and grow. As Christians study their bible and Muslims study the Quran we must study democracy before we can manifest it. We are not doing that.

Just as important is, if we have full bellies and feel secure, or not. No one worshipped a loving God until people had full bellies. They worshipped a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God, and their behavior was pretty unpleasant. That is the way of poverty. I think you may be confusing the consequences of poverty and riches with human nature. Humans are reactive and their experience of reality shapes them. Their nature is very flexible. Not only does poverty and riches shape them, but so does their culture shape them. The US stopped transmitting its culture in 1958 and now people are talking about the last days or the fall of the US, with no understanding of why things have changed. Things have changed largely because our education was changed, and our economy has changed.

Also essential to democracy, rule by reason, is science and unfortunately we no longer understand that! It was not until Newton and enough people came to understand the universe is the result of laws, not the whims of a God, that democracy became possible. We had to get that before we could get the old Greek and Roman classics were full of knowledge of the mysteries of life. Scientific thinking is radically different from relying on mythology to understand life. That mythology does not reveal the laws of the universe and does not make people think they can live by rule by reason. Without science, they are trying to please gods, instead of looking for the bacteria that is killing people. Figuring out how to put wheels on a cart, is not equal to understanding math can reveal life's mysteries. Practical knowledge is not equal to abstract knowledge.

Democracy, rule by reason, comes out of ancient Hellenism that shifted from mythology to math and science. But that is not the full-blown concept of equality and protected human rights we have today. We are still struggling to manifest a perfect democracy. Christianity is a huge stumbling block for democracy because these people are thinking myth, not science, and they have their opinions confused with facts and they feed the beast completely clueless of what they are doing and that we could create a different reality.

Why does democracy fail to live up to ideals? Ignorance and in some cases real limits that can not be overcome. Sorry, I say too much but democracy is a complex concept. Meaning democracy is made up of many concepts, and we are not working with the necessary concepts and scientific understanding of our humanness, so there is no easy short and easy answer to your questions.

That human beings choose to organize themselves with those who are like them, tells us something of our nature, but does not tell us of democracy which is a complex concept that can be learned, just as two plus two can be learned, and you can't do math until you learn how.

Democratic forms of government are not enough! Industry must also use the democratic model and education must prepare everyone for democracy, to manifest democracy.

Last edited by athena; December 20th, 2017 at 07:49 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 03:55 PM   #48

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Democracy has limitations. For it to work you need a high level of education among the voters - otherwise they will vote for demagogues who promise to give the people what they want right now rather than what is in the best long-term interest of the country. It also requires compulsory voting; otherwise a candidate only has to rally his special interest group to get elected. It also requires a strong anti-corruption watchdog to stop the process being influenced by bribes and political "donations".

Businesses can't be democratic. The owner of the business the only person risking his fortune so he/she should be calling all the shots. A good business owner is open to suggestions from employees as to how to improve the business but the final decision needs to be made by the owner.

Last edited by Dan Howard; December 20th, 2017 at 04:03 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 06:00 PM   #49

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Yes, they might be advanced versions of Robots, who are learners but they still need to be activated. And when activated, need Electricity to work. So what's there to worry about ?
And humans need organic matter to work.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 04:29 AM   #50

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Robots will be able to get electricity from anywhere. You can't simply turn off the electricity supply because there will be no such thing as centralised power generation. Some robots will be able to generate their own electricity from self-contained power supplies. This can be done right now with a combination of fuel cells and photovoltaic panels.
When humans reach the stage when the robots they have developed have the potential to generate their own electricity, surely, the risks of loosing control over them will be uppermost in the minds of those who are developing them. And surely appropriate steps will be taken to see that control always stays in the hands of humanity. Unless all of us turn into mad scientists.
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