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Old December 29th, 2017, 06:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Lm1985 View Post
Maybe someone has already wrote about it, but have you ever heard about Scandinavian Socialism?
Yes, and if I didn't have family here I would do everything I could to move to Scandinavia. I wish everyone would watch Micheal Moore's movie "Where to Invade Next". For bloody sure US citizens are not enjoying the highest standard of living.

If you can tell us about Scandinavian Socialism, I would be very happy.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 06:35 AM   #72

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@Athena,
Bangla Desh is a flatland and moreover mostly lies hardly 30-40 meters above mean sea level. This is because this country is basically alluvial soil deposited by the might rivers Ganga ( aka Ganges ) and Brahmaputra in their deltas.
But then, apart from a narrow coastal strip of the land due to the rise in the level of Indian Ocean, nothing this flat country has been endangered.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #73
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Quote by Bodhi---
In Germany the independence of education, and especially universities, from federal influence is very important. While the states fund schools and pay the teachers they have limited influence on what is taught. While the educational ministries of the states implement the curriculum for each year, the curriculum is defined representatives of teachers (and the churches when it comes to the religious classes). Universities have even more liberty which each professor defining their own curriculum.
This leads to differences in the curriculum form state to state and university to university and thus also to quality differences. That’s the reason why this ia a contested topic nowadays.
I am going to pick up my toys and go home. You guys are making me cry.

You have the education system we had. We have the education system of the Prussians.

When the US mobilized for the first world war, there was talk of closing our schools. Industry argued they were not getting their monies worth because even after being educated, our youth were not prepared for jobs. Industry also argued, the war caused a labor shortage. If industry had won this argument, news laws favoring educating and protecting our children would have come to an end, and we would have returned to barbaric working conditions for children. Our labor history is no better than the labor horrors of undeveloped today.

In 1916, vocational education was not part of our education. Our education was 100% focused on good citizenship. Reading, writing, speaking, and practical math were the priorities of education, and it was assumed with those skills anyone could be self-educated and all could participate in politics.

Boy oh boy, did the **** hit the fan, when to our horror it wasn't just industry that needed young people with vocational skills, but OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE, yipes The US is slow learners. We continued to think our national defense wasn't that important because we are protected by two oceans, so until the military technology of WWII we thought our national defense depended on patriotism. We added vocational training but maintained education for citizenship until 1958 and it was controlled by parents and teachers, not the federal government! Does anyone care? Hell no. We are blessed by God and God is taking good care of us, and it doesn't matter if our young are being prepared for citizenship and good moral judgment, or they are being prepared for the Military Industrial Complex, does it? It doesn't matter that what is happening today is a violation of our constitution, does it? We are going to hell in a handbasket, not because of our stupid as decisions, but isn't wonderful how the bible tells of the end of times. Obviously, that proves the bible is God's truth, doesn't it? All we need is to learn a skill so we can get good jobs, and study the bible. Hello New World Order. This is not the democracy we inherited.

So exactly why did Germany go backwards and return to local control of education?
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Old December 29th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #74
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@Athena,
Bangla Desh is a flatland and moreover mostly lies hardly 30-40 meters above mean sea level. This is because this country is basically alluvial soil deposited by the might rivers Ganga ( aka Ganges ) and Brahmaputra in their deltas.
But then, apart from a narrow coastal strip of the land due to the rise in the level of Indian Ocean, nothing this flat country has been endangered.
That is exactly what the lecture I listened to said, except there appears to be a different opinion about the danger. People of the US love to believe God blessed them, but none have been blessed than India and Bangla Desh. All that wonderful farm land! And gold! Makes our notion of being blessed by God look silly, because evidently, God loved India more?

If we did not have climate change, everything would be fine in Bangladesh but the danger of catastrophic floods is increasing. This is only one area that may lose usable land because of increase sea levels. We all know Florence is having a problem, and New York may experience a serious problem.

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Historic floods[edit]
In the 19th century, six major floods were recorded: 1842, 1858, 1871, 1875, 1885 and 1892. Eighteen major floods occurred in the 20th century. Those of 1987, 1988 and 1951 were of catastrophic consequence. More recent floods include 2004 and 2010.

The catastrophic floods of 1987 occurred throughout July and August[2] and affected 57,300 km2 of land, (about 40% of the total area of the country) and was estimated as a once in 30-70 year event. The seriously affected regions were on the western side of the Brahmaputra, the area below the confluence of the Ganges and the Brahmaputra and considerable areas north of Khulna.

The flood of 1988, which was also of catastrophic consequence, occurred throughout August and September. The waters inundated about 82,000 km2 of land, (about 60% of the area) and its return period was estimated at 50–100 years. Rainfall together with synchronisation of very high flows of all the three major rivers of the country in only three days aggravated the flood. Dhaka, the capital of Bangladesh, was severely affected. The flood lasted 15 to 20 days.

In 1998, over 75% of the total area of the country was flooded, including half of the capital city Dhaka.[3] It was similar to the catastrophic flood of 1988 in terms of the extent of the flooding. A combination of heavy rainfall within and outside the country and synchronization of peak flows of the major rivers contributed to the river. 30 million people were made homeless and the death toll reached over a thousand.[3] The flooding caused contamination of crops and animals and unclean water resulted in cholera and typhoid outbreaks. Few hospitals were functional because of damage from the flooding and those that were had too many patients, resulting in everyday injuries becoming fatal due to lack of treatment. 700,000 hectares of crops were destroyed,[4] 400 factories were forced to close, and there was a 20% decrease in economic production. Communication within the country also became difficult.

1999 floods[5] although not as serious as the 1998 floods, were still very dangerous and costly. The floods occurred between July and September, causing many deaths, and many people were left homeless. The extensive damage had to be paid for with foreign assistance. The entire flood lasted approximately 65 days.

The 2004 flood was very similar to the 1988 and 1998 floods with two thirds of the country under water.

In early October 2005, dozens of villages were inundated when rain caused the rivers of northwestern Bangladesh to burst their banks.

Floods also occurred in 2015 and 2017.
New York, and US, plug the natural disasters into your computations of gross national product.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #75
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Quote by Bodhi---I don’t know but there seems a sense of romanticism and nostalgia there. And maybe I don’t really understand it. I don’t see which liberty the US lost. (and why liberty by itself has any value aside of that).
What is kinda funny though is that you think the US lost its “soul” by embracing German bureaucracy/education while there are people in Germany claiming Germany lost its “soul” by embracing American culture and “way of life”.
To me neither is true. Both nations changed a lot for sure but neither lost its soul. Change is just natural. If it’s good or bad, hard to say. Personally, I’m still with Leibniz on that one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_o...ossible_worlds
We are losing a memory of our democracy with the death of our elders. We were not run by policies as we are run by policies today. This is such an awful problem I find it difficult to focus on it enough to explain it. But my generation is aware of the end of our liberty and human dignity, as we are being consumed by the Borg.

We would have never imagined property owners controlling our lives as they are being controlled today. Apartment living has become very institutionalized. We can not even hang our own curtains or put a picture on the wall or play a musical instrument in our rooms. We are frustrated by receptionist who are sure everything is run by policy rather than by finding out what a person wants and figuring out how to meet that need.
Our medical care is the worst! It is like being put on the hook that pulls a carcass down an assembly line to be processed. Doctors, dentist, teachers have lost authority and they are all controlled by policies that make them powerless to use their judgment. This may sound like progress to you, but to me, it is a living hell like the Borg and our young know better and cannot compare their reality with our experience of the past. For them as for the Germans under Hitler, this is new and improved and they will argue all the good reasons for this change.

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Old January 3rd, 2018, 05:27 AM   #76

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What I see is how discussion works. It is easier to move a discussion forward with a disagreement than with agreement, and I am thrilled to be discussing such matters with someone who lives with what we are talking about, and therefore has a different point of view.
Dito. Very interesting, I generally like history books from "outsiders" more than from "insiders", for example the books from Neil MacGregor about German history are way more interesting to me than those by Germans.

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Even a simple tribe will have people of different natures. Some will be self-confident and adventurous and others will be introverted, some will seem to be happy all the time and others will be miserable all the time. You mentioned two things that favor what the disposition of people is likely to be, farming or trading. Another early division of men is the warriors versus the farmers, and it seems leadership came out of the warriors more than coming out of farmers. What we might ask is, what is the geology of each area, and how might the resources, climate and other geological features mold the people?

Charles Sarolea spoke of the Junkers.
The Junkers had a disproportionate amount of influence on the Prussian and thus the German federal state. This is true. However, their influence on other German states - those not absorbed by Prussia - was rather limited to non-existent.

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This reminds me of our Southerners who also owned large estates and used slave labor to do the work. These people still maintain an attitude towards war that is different from other areas of the US. Texas isn't known for plantations like other southern states, but their oil wealth has lead to them paying the bill for men who support the military industrial complex, Eisenhower, Reagan, Bush.
Tbh I quite admire the Texan and to a different degree the American Southerners fierce sense of independence and individual liberty even though it often is at odds with a functioning society on a larger scale.

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Might we better understand such differences and therefore, better understand history? Is there a relation between the Junkers and the Southerners of the US that we might use to help us understand history? Why do some have a sense of power and authority and think they are best suited to rule and some do not? Germans as US citizens today, obeyed authority without question. Charles Sarolea was very troubled by this, and why the congenial and creative Germans were allowing the Prussians to run the show. Not everyone in Texas thinks he has power and authority and is the best suited to rule, but those who do, will.
Well, it's not that Germans obeyed without question. It was more that it was never taught how to ask the right questions. This changed after '45 due to obvious reasons. However, sometimes this can go too far as well, see nowadays where nobody trusts any news outlet or anything someone in power as to say at all anymore - this is very true for the German left and right and more and more true for the "center" as well.
Also, I do know a lot of people who often say "I don't bother with politics anymore, too busy with my job and/or life".
I think this is similar in the US. There is no education towards asking the right questions. People are too busy making a living or with consumerism and then there is too much information to digest.
This is a great chance for people who, well, don't bother with asking questions or going through information but just do. The strong men who talk "bring order into the chaos" and give simple solutions.

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
Charles Sarolea thought so. He said the other Germans were dreamy, congenial, and creative, and just didn't want to get into the harsh reality of resolving political conflicts. The Germans he spoke with were as willing as to allow the Prussians to run things, as most US citizens today are glad to let others take care of politics as long as those others don't cross a couple of boundaries. For example, a huge number of votes are determined solely on one issue, abortion. I don't think an atheist could be elected president of the US, that is more important than the person's position on international issues, which most US citizens seem to know nothing about. But gosh, we are proud of smiling a lot and being "nice" people. While Texas military industrial complex people run our country.
Thank goodness God takes good care of us, as the Germans had faith in God, when the Prussians took them into two world wars.
Well, the "other Germans" also did not have the means to resolve the political conflicts at the time. The 2nd most powerful German state after Prussia at the time was probably Bavaria (not counting Austria-Hungary). But compared to Prussia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, France and the UK it was just insignificant. It had to decide between the competing German powers (Prussia and Austria-Hungary) and chose the wrong side in the 1860s and thus was forced into the Alliance with Prussia and later the German Empire. It wasn't as much disinterest but rather an inability due to powerlessness - of course it didn't help that Bavaria had a king that indeed was very dreamy and preferred building beautiful castles like Neuschwanstein than to compete deal with the Prussians. Pity we didn't have someone like Max Emmanuel II. at the time, history might have been different.

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
I wonder if the Military Industrial Complex that is an imitation of the Prussians in every significant way, can be removed from the US?
Doubt it. It is self-sustaining with way too much money and lobby-power. Maybe a mentality change in the US, back to pre-WWI isolationism could do that long-term. But I cannot see that happening.

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
I am going to pick up my toys and go home. You guys are making me cry.

You have the education system we had. We have the education system of the Prussians.

When the US mobilized for the first world war, there was talk of closing our schools. Industry argued they were not getting their monies worth because even after being educated, our youth were not prepared for jobs. Industry also argued, the war caused a labor shortage. If industry had won this argument, news laws favoring educating and protecting our children would have come to an end, and we would have returned to barbaric working conditions for children. Our labor history is no better than the labor horrors of undeveloped today.

In 1916, vocational education was not part of our education. Our education was 100% focused on good citizenship. Reading, writing, speaking, and practical math were the priorities of education, and it was assumed with those skills anyone could be self-educated and all could participate in politics.

Boy oh boy, did the **** hit the fan, when to our horror it wasn't just industry that needed young people with vocational skills, but OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE, yipes The US is slow learners. We continued to think our national defense wasn't that important because we are protected by two oceans, so until the military technology of WWII we thought our national defense depended on patriotism. We added vocational training but maintained education for citizenship until 1958 and it was controlled by parents and teachers, not the federal government! Does anyone care? Hell no. We are blessed by God and God is taking good care of us, and it doesn't matter if our young are being prepared for citizenship and good moral judgment, or they are being prepared for the Military Industrial Complex, does it? It doesn't matter that what is happening today is a violation of our constitution, does it? We are going to hell in a handbasket, not because of our stupid as decisions, but isn't wonderful how the bible tells of the end of times. Obviously, that proves the bible is God's truth, doesn't it? All we need is to learn a skill so we can get good jobs, and study the bible. Hello New World Order. This is not the democracy we inherited.

So exactly why did Germany go backwards and return to local control of education?
Well, tbh, in the situation the US was in at the time. All of this makes sense.

We didn't go back. Education was always state-bound. Prussian education was very much what you describe. But in other parts of Germany this was never the case or too a much smaller degree. Bavarians for example, despite being very conservative and more religious than the rest of Germany, despise authority.
Example: in the 2000s there was supposed to be a smoking ban due to EU law, the details were up to the nations and in Germany up to the states. Bavaria introduced a rather soft smoking ban but that was a big deal, lead to a huge uproar (mostly due to banning smoking in beer tents) and the ruling party (in power since the 50s) lost its majority and needed a coalition to stay in power at the next election - mostly due to this issue. Next up, the new Bavarian government put to public vote a few different options of the smoking ban (there had to be one due to EU law) and let the public decide. Those options ranged from a very soft one to one of the strictest in the EU. The strictest won by far - including banning smoking in beer tents.
This mentality has of course a huge impact on education. There is no way Bavarians accepted back then or now to be told what to teach Bavarian kids by Berlin - even so the majority of Bavarians is in favour of a federal unified curriculum for schools. This is true for a varying degree for Swabians, Saxonians and so on as well.
There was no going back because we never moved forward really - of course it was different during the Nazi times where everything got centralised and prussianised to stay in the term you are using.

Quote:
Originally Posted by athena View Post
We are losing a memory of our democracy with the death of our elders. We were not run by policies as we are run by policies today. This is such an awful problem I find it difficult to focus on it enough to explain it. But my generation is aware of the end of our liberty and human dignity, as we are being consumed by the Borg.

We would have never imagined property owners controlling our lives as they are being controlled today. Apartment living has become very institutionalized. We can not even hang our own curtains or put a picture on the wall or play a musical instrument in our rooms. We are frustrated by receptionist who are sure everything is run by policy rather than by finding out what a person wants and figuring out how to meet that need.
Our medical care is the worst! It is like being put on the hook that pulls a carcass down an assembly line to be processed. Doctors, dentist, teachers have lost authority and they are all controlled by policies that make them powerless to use their judgment. This may sound like progress to you, but to me, it is a living hell like the Borg and our young know better and cannot compare their reality with our experience of the past. For them as for the Germans under Hitler, this is new and improved and they will argue all the good reasons for this change.

Well, to me most in life is about balance. A state run by machine-like humans is not something to aspire to. A libertarian-anarchist society will end either in mob rule or in that of a few strong men. There is a middle ground. I do not think any society has found that one yet but there are a few that come somewhat close. And in the end it is always up to the people, in a democracy the people get what they want. If they want being told what to do they get it. If they want liberty they get it as well, maybe - once a law or tax is there it is really hard to get rid of it.

Last edited by bodhi; January 3rd, 2018 at 05:48 AM.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 02:22 PM   #77
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Dito. Very interesting, I generally like history books from "outsiders" more than from "insiders", for example the books from Neil MacGregor about German history are way more interesting to me than those by Germans.



The Junkers had a disproportionate amount of influence on the Prussian and thus the German federal state. This is true. However, their influence on other German states - those not absorbed by Prussia - was rather limited to non-existent.



Tbh I quite admire the Texan and to a different degree the American Southerners fierce sense of independence and individual liberty even though it often is at odds with a functioning society on a larger scale.



Well, it's not that Germans obeyed without question. It was more that it was never taught how to ask the right questions. This changed after '45 due to obvious reasons. However, sometimes this can go too far as well, see nowadays where nobody trusts any news outlet or anything someone in power as to say at all anymore - this is very true for the German left and right and more and more true for the "center" as well.
Also, I do know a lot of people who often say "I don't bother with politics anymore, too busy with my job and/or life".
I think this is similar in the US. There is no education towards asking the right questions. People are too busy making a living or with consumerism and then there is too much information to digest.
This is a great chance for people who, well, don't bother with asking questions or going through information but just do. The strong men who talk "bring order into the chaos" and give simple solutions.



Well, the "other Germans" also did not have the means to resolve the political conflicts at the time. The 2nd most powerful German state after Prussia at the time was probably Bavaria (not counting Austria-Hungary). But compared to Prussia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, France and the UK it was just insignificant. It had to decide between the competing German powers (Prussia and Austria-Hungary) and chose the wrong side in the 1860s and thus was forced into the Alliance with Prussia and later the German Empire. It wasn't as much disinterest but rather an inability due to powerlessness - of course it didn't help that Bavaria had a king that indeed was very dreamy and preferred building beautiful castles like Neuschwanstein than to compete deal with the Prussians. Pity we didn't have someone like Max Emmanuel II. at the time, history might have been different.



Doubt it. It is self-sustaining with way too much money and lobby-power. Maybe a mentality change in the US, back to pre-WWI isolationism could do that long-term. But I cannot see that happening.



Well, tbh, in the situation the US was in at the time. All of this makes sense.

We didn't go back. Education was always state-bound. Prussian education was very much what you describe. But in other parts of Germany this was never the case or too a much smaller degree. Bavarians for example, despite being very conservative and more religious than the rest of Germany, despise authority.
Example: in the 2000s there was supposed to be a smoking ban due to EU law, the details were up to the nations and in Germany up to the states. Bavaria introduced a rather soft smoking ban but that was a big deal, lead to a huge uproar (mostly due to banning smoking in beer tents) and the ruling party (in power since the 50s) lost its majority and needed a coalition to stay in power at the next election - mostly due to this issue. Next up, the new Bavarian government put to public vote a few different options of the smoking ban (there had to be one due to EU law) and let the public decide. Those options ranged from a very soft one to one of the strictest in the EU. The strictest won by far - including banning smoking in beer tents.
This mentality has of course a huge impact on education. There is no way Bavarians accepted back then or now to be told what to teach Bavarian kids by Berlin - even so the majority of Bavarians is in favour of a federal unified curriculum for schools. This is true for a varying degree for Swabians, Saxonians and so on as well.
There was no going back because we never moved forward really - of course it was different during the Nazi times where everything got centralised and prussianised to stay in the term you are using.



Well, to me most in life is about balance. A state run by machine-like humans is not something to aspire to. A libertarian-anarchist society will end either in mob rule or in that of a few strong men. There is a middle ground. I do not think any society has found that one yet but there are a few that come somewhat close. And in the end it is always up to the people, in a democracy the people get what they want. If they want being told what to do they get it. If they want liberty they get it as well, maybe - once a law or tax is there it is really hard to get rid of it.

I love talking with you. You seem to get it isn't all this or that, but a little of this and that, here and there. The Prussians had a strong influence because they were very good at bueaucatic organization. From what I have read of the USSR, they really sucked at bureaucratic organization. We used to laugh at the communist red tape that prevented things from getting done. That was before we became as paranoid as Germany has been in the past. Now one of the biggest complaints of businesses is how red tape has become such a headache! I heard one German woman throw up her hands and say she was returning to Germany because Germans now have greater freedom.

By paranoid I mean the way Richard M. Brickner, M.D. defined paranoid in his 1943 book "Is Germany Incurable"? He defines paranoid as an excessive need to be superior and in control. I think this very much goes with technology. Starting with Newton we got pretty excited about our human potential with science, but technology has turned the doctor into a monster. That is, we are so dissatisfied with our humanness and the simple life it is like we are in a pressure cooker about to explode. Everything must be better than ever was before, including the human being, and in case the human fails, there is always AI to take his place.

The Prussian bureaucratic model makes everyone replaceable and that makes people paranoid. It is hard to understand this if there is not an understanding of a different bureaucratic order where the individual was not easily replaced. Not only are we easily replaced, because whoever replaces us will do the job exactly as we do, because that is determined by policy, not the person doing the job, but there is a very strong drive to be impersonal. I was fired from a volunteer position of socializing with elderly people, for being too friendly, too personal. My value system is opposed to being superficial and not genuine with people. When I was trained for the position, an old training video said having a senior companion is like having family. Indeed it was like having family because the job was as much for giving older domestic women a small income, as it was about helping people needing help. When the director had to be replaced because of health reasons, her replacement had the technological correct education, but not the old values! It really did not go well when my clients fought to me. That validated I was being too personal, like family.

I am afraid my story does not convey the point, but technology has lead to a change in values and paranoia seems to come with the change. Following policy is everything. Our character and individual abilities and judgment do not matter that much. After this technological change in a welfare department froze everyone in fear of violating policy and being fired, there was a campaign to encourage everyone to be more creative problem solvers. Good luck with that. Once people are afraid of losing their jobs, they are going to avoid risking them, especially when they are working to buy a home and to have retirement benefits. When we must have that paycheck, we are very controllable. When government is providing the most jobs, the people are very controlled.

I love this quote from Aldous Huxley, "In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent on governmental inefficiency. The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing: but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely."

But autocratic industry set us up for this, because the hierarchy of authority, meant blaming the low man on the totem pole for anything that went wrong and covering one's own ass. There is nothing a subordinate worker without a union, can do about that. In the democratic model, I learned the supervisor is to assume responsibility for everything and begin with checking to be sure the directions were explained well. That model builds trust, the autocratic model can build enemies. Add concern for being impersonal and "technologically correct" to that, and things can be really ugly. You can see this in how we talk with each other. God forbid if someone says something that isn't technologically correct, as though with technology we can rely on the experts and be very sure of ourselves.

Have a said anything that makes sense?

What you said of needing to learn how to questions, is right on! Exactly right! It goes with being taught we are responsible and must depend on our own judgment.

Last edited by athena; January 6th, 2018 at 02:26 PM.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 06:21 AM   #78

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I love talking with you. You seem to get it isn't all this or that, but a little of this and that, here and there. The Prussians had a strong influence because they were very good at bueaucatic organization. From what I have read of the USSR, they really sucked at bureaucratic organization. We used to laugh at the communist red tape that prevented things from getting done. That was before we became as paranoid as Germany has been in the past. Now one of the biggest complaints of businesses is how red tape has become such a headache! I heard one German woman throw up her hands and say she was returning to Germany because Germans now have greater freedom.

By paranoid I mean the way Richard M. Brickner, M.D. defined paranoid in his 1943 book "Is Germany Incurable"? He defines paranoid as an excessive need to be superior and in control. I think this very much goes with technology. Starting with Newton we got pretty excited about our human potential with science, but technology has turned the doctor into a monster. That is, we are so dissatisfied with our humanness and the simple life it is like we are in a pressure cooker about to explode. Everything must be better than ever was before, including the human being, and in case the human fails, there is always AI to take his place.
I don't think this is really a German trait but a human one. All through history we tried to control the environment and ourselves. All through our history we formed groups that deemed themselves superior. It helped to drive us to search for new frontiers, improving upon what is there. It got us where we are. Of course it has some negative side effects but it's like with most pharmaceutics, you can't have the good without some of the bad.

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
The Prussian bureaucratic model makes everyone replaceable and that makes people paranoid. It is hard to understand this if there is not an understanding of a different bureaucratic order where the individual was not easily replaced. Not only are we easily replaced, because whoever replaces us will do the job exactly as we do, because that is determined by policy, not the person doing the job, but there is a very strong drive to be impersonal. I was fired from a volunteer position of socializing with elderly people, for being too friendly, too personal. My value system is opposed to being superficial and not genuine with people. When I was trained for the position, an old training video said having a senior companion is like having family. Indeed it was like having family because the job was as much for giving older domestic women a small income, as it was about helping people needing help. When the director had to be replaced because of health reasons, her replacement had the technological correct education, but not the old values! It really did not go well when my clients fought to me. That validated I was being too personal, like family.

I am afraid my story does not convey the point, but technology has lead to a change in values and paranoia seems to come with the change. Following policy is everything. Our character and individual abilities and judgment do not matter that much. After this technological change in a welfare department froze everyone in fear of violating policy and being fired, there was a campaign to encourage everyone to be more creative problem solvers. Good luck with that. Once people are afraid of losing their jobs, they are going to avoid risking them, especially when they are working to buy a home and to have retirement benefits. When we must have that paycheck, we are very controllable. When government is providing the most jobs, the people are very controlled.

I love this quote from Aldous Huxley, "In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent on governmental inefficiency. The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing: but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely."

But autocratic industry set us up for this, because the hierarchy of authority, meant blaming the low man on the totem pole for anything that went wrong and covering one's own ass. There is nothing a subordinate worker without a union, can do about that. In the democratic model, I learned the supervisor is to assume responsibility for everything and begin with checking to be sure the directions were explained well. That model builds trust, the autocratic model can build enemies. Add concern for being impersonal and "technologically correct" to that, and things can be really ugly. You can see this in how we talk with each other. God forbid if someone says something that isn't technologically correct, as though with technology we can rely on the experts and be very sure of ourselves.
I agree that all jobs nowadays are set up in a way that we all are replaceable and our jobs are impersonal. However, the trade-off is increased productivity. IMO the trade-off would be well worth it if the increased productivity would end up beneficial for the people getting made more productive. However, the increase of productivity in the last decades didn't really arrive there.

I don't know, there are many companies, especially fresher ones that try themselves at non-hierarchical models.

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
Have a said anything that makes sense?

What you said of needing to learn how to questions, is right on! Exactly right! It goes with being taught we are responsible and must depend on our own judgment.
The problem with people not taking responsibility has IMO mainly to do with a fear of failure that is imprinted on us as kids. Instead of learning "the greatest teacher failure is" ( managed to get a Star Wars quote in there) we teach the opposite. Back to education
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Old January 9th, 2018, 10:41 AM   #79
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Of course, you are right, but I would like to know more about Cuba because I am not sure our dog eat dog reality is the only possibility?

Quote:
Cuba offers Puerto Rico aid after devastating Hurricane Maria - Xinhua | English.news.cn

HAVANA, Sept. 25 (Xinhua) -- Cuba on Monday offered humanitarian and medical aid to Puerto Rico which was hit by the devastating Hurricane Maria last week and left in a precarious economic and social situation.

Cuba's deputy Foreign Minister Rogelio Sierra said Havana has offered to send to San Juan an emergency campaign hospital with 39 doctors to help the needed population with health services.

"Cuba also offers to send four brigades of electric workers to help our sister nation rebuild its electrical system," said the official in his Twitter account.

Cuba has already sent medical and relief brigades to Dominica and Antigua and Barbuda, which are also affected by recent hurricanes Maria and Irma.

This offer must be accepted by Washington as Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the United States and Cuban aid workers and doctors must be granted U.S. visas.
I also know there is a morality test that grades the different level of morality people have achieved and it does not work for the Russians. For the morality test to work people must accept the notion that it is morally okay to without hold medicine that can save a dying person's life if that person can not pay not pay for it, and at least in the USSR that was not accepted. In the USSR withhold vital medicine if someone could not pay for it was immoral. I believe it is possible for people to make better moral agreements than we have made.

What do you think?

PS do you know the Star Trek Klingon language was based on the German language? I think this in part is also based on the Prussian love of war that was identified as a German love of war? Klingon is very macho, yes? More of a rule by fear than an effeminate, Jesus, rule with love and forgiveness.

When women come to political office there is an increase in government spending for the health and well being of children and a statistically significant increase in their health and well being. It seems to men, are more prone to playing games and thinking in terms of power, leading to a Military Industrial Complex that neglects the health and well being of children and elders who are not directly related to the person holding power, who gets the lion's share of all that is.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 01:51 PM   #80

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Quote:
Originally Posted by athena View Post
I also know there is a morality test that grades the different level of morality people have achieved and it does not work for the Russians. For the morality test to work people must accept the notion that it is morally okay to without hold medicine that can save a dying person's life if that person can not pay not pay for it, and at least in the USSR that was not accepted. In the USSR withhold vital medicine if someone could not pay for it was immoral.
Are you talking about today's Russia or the USSR? Their economic and social systems are completely different.
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