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Old December 3rd, 2017, 07:30 AM   #1
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compare economic systems


In a book titled "A BASIC CALL TO CONSCIOUSNESS" The Hau de no sau nee Address the world and explain the domestic economy they had. We may agree with them on moral grounds that capitalism is bad and some even say capitalism is evil. On the other hand, the developments that have raised our standard of living and more than doubled our life expectancy came out of capitalism and there is no way the mass of humanity today could even survive without the technology that came out of capitalism.

I hope everyone respects there is good and bad all mixed up in the different economic systems, when they argue why they favor one over the other. Ideally, we could take what is best from all of them and have a better global economy that also means social justice around the world. Our reality is what we make it. How can we make it the best?
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 08:29 AM   #2

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Originally Posted by athena View Post
In a book titled "A BASIC CALL TO CONSCIOUSNESS" The Hau de no sau nee Address the world and explain the domestic economy they had. We may agree with them on moral grounds that capitalism is bad and some even say capitalism is evil. On the other hand, the developments that have raised our standard of living and more than doubled our life expectancy came out of capitalism and there is no way the mass of humanity today could even survive without the technology that came out of capitalism.

I hope everyone respects there is good and bad all mixed up in the different economic systems, when they argue why they favor one over the other. Ideally, we could take what is best from all of them and have a better global economy that also means social justice around the world. Our reality is what we make it. How can we make it the best?
I like your proposal of taking the best from each system of Economy and thereby increase the chances of the humans to overcome the economic challenges they face.
All of us know the evils of Capitalism and Communism, the two principal systems, because they are glaringly obvious. But there are a large no.of advantages in. following both the systems.
Capitalism encourages initiative, competitiveness among traders and industrialists. With Merit getting weightage above birth or other advantages like being sons and daughters of party officials, there is all round improvement in productivity. There is of course, the relative freedom in all spheres experienced by people in capitalist states compared to the communist states. That's good for creativity.
Communist rule means more things get done faster rather than go on for large periods. Less friction in society, because of the imposition that all must follow a lawn. Centralised planning is a good focus on what the state can or cannot do. Fear inspires people to follow the law.
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 11:41 AM   #3

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It is not correct to say that capitalism is bad or evil. It is a system, which has advantages and disadvantages, and it has prevailed over all other systems thus far. However, capitalism has limits; the primary one being that resources on this planet are limited, so the economy can't continue to grow and grow for ever. In time, we'll need to replace capitalism with a different system, or we'll run out of resources.
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 04:04 PM   #4
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Is it any wonder why that the majority of the world uses some kind of mixed market economy with socialised health, welfare, education? The market has its place, but not at the expense of a nations people.

Both ends of the system have failed spectacularly with the results of the USSR as the worlds greatest communist experiment, and with the Global Financial Crisis exposing all of the problems of laissez faire capitalism exposing the US to over $18trillion dollars of debt.

There is no winning at either extreme. We can only choose something in the middle that works.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 07:06 AM   #5

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Is it any wonder why that the majority of the world uses some kind of mixed market economy with socialised health, welfare, education? The market has its place, but not at the expense of a nations people.

Both ends of the system have failed spectacularly with the results of the USSR as the worlds greatest communist experiment, and with the Global Financial Crisis exposing all of the problems of laissez faire capitalism exposing the US to over $18trillion dollars of debt.

There is no winning at either extreme. We can only choose something in the middle that works.
The "global financial crisis" was not a result of "laissez faire capitalism", which has not been seen in the world (except perhaps in Malaysia and Singapore) for at least 100 years.

There were numerous causes for the meltdown on the derivatives market, some of which were the result of "greed" and some the result of government regulatory policies and decisions--for example, leaving the interest rate too low for too long and then raising it too fast.

I do agree that the key is to find something in the middle that works. The problem is, of course, to find that something.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 07:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
I like your proposal of taking the best from each system of Economy and thereby increase the chances of the humans to overcome the economic challenges they face.
All of us know the evils of Capitalism and Communism, the two principal systems, because they are glaringly obvious. But there are a large no.of advantages in. following both the systems.
Capitalism encourages initiative, competitiveness among traders and industrialists. With Merit getting weightage above birth or other advantages like being sons and daughters of party officials, there is all round improvement in productivity. There is of course, the relative freedom in all spheres experienced by people in capitalist states compared to the communist states. That's good for creativity.
Communist rule means more things get done faster rather than go on for large periods. Less friction in society, because of the imposition that all must follow a lawn. Centralised planning is a good focus on what the state can or cannot do. Fear inspires people to follow the law.
I knew I could count on you as a voice of reason. However, given the speed of change in the US, I would not say communist can change anything faster. The speed of change is not about economic systems so much as the difference between democracy or autocracy. The more people involved in making a decision, the longer it will take to make the decision. We are passing life-changing bills at the speed of light and the bills are so long and complicated I don't think anyone reads them and understands the consequences of passing them.

No government controls on a medical system in a capitalist country cannot possibly meet that value of democracy being for the benefit of all. We used to laugh at the USSR for having so much red tape and government control, boxcars of perishable foods were be left at rail stations to rot, because the authority to move the cars was with the railroad. But today we are not laughing so much because we also have the red tape and government controls that are preventing us from doing what needs to be done in a timely way. We are all experimenting with the best way to get desired results and pitting ourselves against each other instead of cooperating is just stupid. Who is going to lose if a communist country like Cuba is allowed free trade rights? And shouldn't the US take responsibility for the part our economic warfare on the USSR had to do with destroying it? I am suspicious about who benefits from such economic warfare?

I don't know about centralizing planning? It seems essential with a global economy but then where is the center? It is my understanding the US is the center of world economies and that China is wanting to have that position?

More difficult for me to understanding is the growing government control in each nation over economic matters and trade agreements. My understanding of economics is very limited. If I want to make money I can make a product and attempt to sell it. But selling locally as we all once did, would never mean having the money I must have. I must be able to market my product in large cities and hopefully many states and having foreign markets would be great but I could never grow fast enough for that without a bank loan or investors to pay for that growth. That is a whole different level of understanding than the decisions our governments are making.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 08:10 AM   #7
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It is not correct to say that capitalism is bad or evil. It is a system, which has advantages and disadvantages, and it has prevailed over all other systems thus far. However, capitalism has limits; the primary one being that resources on this planet are limited, so the economy can't continue to grow and grow for ever. In time, we'll need to replace capitalism with a different system, or we'll run out of resources.
Without population control, we will run out of essential resources regardless of the economic system. However, in my mind, it is plain stupid to strip the ground of all its resources and not be required to invest profits into the future of the town's economy. I think the communism have done a better job of controlling for the future, when they have had the technology to do so? What we are doing in the US is insane. Property values increase and then crash, and what is left is a ghost town, or a town so poor it becomes a worse and worse place to live. Sort of like an Indian reservation with no resources for economic growth and a lot of alcoholism. Please note this is about being real about economic reality, not about skin color or ethnic differences. If there is nothing for a growing economy, there is nothing for a growing economy.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 08:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by David Vagamundo View Post
The "global financial crisis" was not a result of "laissez faire capitalism", which has not been seen in the world (except perhaps in Malaysia and Singapore) for at least 100 years.

There were numerous causes for the meltdown on the derivatives market, some of which were the result of "greed" and some the result of government regulatory policies and decisions--for example, leaving the interest rate too low for too long and then raising it too fast.

I do agree that the key is to find something in the middle that works. The problem is, of course, to find that something.
Maybe the term "laissez faire" is wrong but Greenspan's ideology was wrong and we had a subprime crisis.



Wow, Bernie Sanders unloads on Greenspan in the Youtube that follows the one I posted.

Last edited by athena; December 5th, 2017 at 08:28 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 08:22 AM   #9

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Maybe the term "laissez faire" is wrong but Greenspan's ideology was wrong and we had a subprime crisis.

Greenspan is one of the prime suspects in the derivative market/housing meltdown. Interest rates were too low for too long.

I am afraid the Fed today is repeating his mistake.

"No government controls on a medical system in a capitalist country cannot possibly meet that value of democracy being for the benefit of all. We used to laugh at the USSR for having so much red tape and government control, boxcars of perishable foods were be left at rail stations to rot, because the authority to move the cars was with the railroad. But today we are not laughing so much because we also have the red tape and government controls that are preventing us from doing what needs to be done in a timely way. We are all experimenting with the best way to get desired results and pitting ourselves against each other instead of cooperating is just stupid."

Agree with this quote wholeheartedly.
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Old December 10th, 2017, 10:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by David Vagamundo View Post
Greenspan is one of the prime suspects in the derivative market/housing meltdown. Interest rates were too low for too long.

I am afraid the Fed today is repeating his mistake.

"No government controls on a medical system in a capitalist country cannot possibly meet that value of democracy being for the benefit of all. We used to laugh at the USSR for having so much red tape and government control, boxcars of perishable foods were be left at rail stations to rot, because the authority to move the cars was with the railroad. But today we are not laughing so much because we also have the red tape and government controls that are preventing us from doing what needs to be done in a timely way. We are all experimenting with the best way to get desired results and pitting ourselves against each other instead of cooperating is just stupid."

Agree with this quote wholeheartedly.
Greenspan has warned of a bond bubble due to the interest rate.

I am not sure but I think some in his generation have totally unrealistic ideas about life. Have you noticed his ideas are not so different from Reagan's? These men seem to believe 100% in the American Dream and if anyone isn't doing well, it is that person's fault, as though there is enough room on the top for everyone, and that our economy benefits from cheap labor doesn't matter, or mean, we should universal medicine and assistance with housing to balance out the wage difference. I think their notion of reality is like a Christian notion where all is the manifestation of God and everything is okay if this God is pleased. It is a really good way to avoid unpleasant realities. Kind of enjoying video games to block out reality. That is my choice.

We can see a parallel in Rome when their economy developed enough to split the citizens between the very rich and the poor. Of course the rich ruled and they did so understanding how their decisions would benefit them, but not how those decisions hurt the poor and lower middle class who lost their farms when drafted into wars and could not find employment because slaves were doing all the work.

Have you listened to the folks like Greenspan and those around Trump talk? Their perspective on what is good for the country, does not include the pain of the low-income citizens. They do not have a long-term vision of where this division of rich and poor is going.
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