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Old December 24th, 2017, 07:30 PM   #11
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Yes, but, isn't this a separate argument, the dilemma of what to do with the children who come from broken homes?


We've been here in Australia before... British and Indigenous kids in both cases either from broken and war torn homes. I am rather reticent to repeat it. As they do those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


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Old December 25th, 2017, 12:14 AM   #12
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But what are you going to do if they test positive anyway?

Take away their welfare so they spiral further down in their misery?

Forced rehab? Rehab without someones consent has a very low success rate.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 12:52 AM   #13
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But what are you going to do if they test positive anyway?

Take away their welfare so they spiral further down in their misery?

Forced rehab? Rehab without someones consent has a very low success rate.
The Plan is simply to cut benefits without any other action what so ever. It's designed to attract votes not do anything useful.

Of course it's going to targeted to high incidence areas, which will be in the end socio-economic class selective, those at the bottom will be faced with this.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 01:26 AM   #14
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I dont see in principle a problem with welfare being conditional on following certain rules

Think about it.. If you use drugs at work, your probabiliy to get fired is very high. (and that's not the only rule you must follow at work, there are plenty)

If you are being paid welfare (in effect you get a salary) there is no reason why you should not also abide by certain rules , including no drug use...

Conversely a habit of welfare being paid no matter what, creates a culture of "I am owed" which is negative for both the recipient and society at large
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #15

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Yes, but, isn't this a separate argument, the dilemma of what to do with the children who come from broken homes?
Not necessarily. If you cut welfare benefits to drug users with children, then the children suffer the consequences as well. As you may know, plenty of those on welfare who may have a substance abuse issue are parents. In fact, i would say most, as those adults without children usually receive minimal welfare benefits.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #16

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I dont see in principle a problem with welfare being conditional on following certain rules

Think about it.. If you use drugs at work, your probabiliy to get fired is very high. (and that's not the only rule you must follow at work, there are plenty)

If you are being paid welfare (in effect you get a salary) there is no reason why you should not also abide by certain rules , including no drug use...

Conversely a habit of welfare being paid no matter what, creates a culture of "I am owed" which is negative for both the recipient and society at large
It depends on the drug, yes? I mean, personally, I have moved to tolerance for marijuana use. It may soon be legal in the U.S. soon, anyway. Is marijuana use, in and of itself, a reason to drug test? Hard drugs usually takes its natural course with users, which means it eventually surfaces. At that point, the user's problems are often more than keeping welfare benefits.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 08:11 AM   #17
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It depends on the drug, yes? I mean, personally, I have moved to tolerance for marijuana use. It may soon be legal in the U.S. soon, anyway. Is marijuana use, in and of itself, a reason to drug test? Hard drugs usually takes its natural course with users, which means it eventually surfaces. At that point, the user's problems are often more than keeping welfare benefits.
Well obviously if the drug is legal, then no issue.... but if it is not, regardless of differences of opinion... then that's that
in many countries you will serve jail time for possession and/or usage of marijuana... even if you produce endless medical certificates....
plus some marijuana users (or rather "abusers" in this case) are in a state of near perpetual stupor
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Old December 25th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #18

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What drugs are they testing for? I have the feeling most of the positives will be for marijuana which if alcohol is legal so should marijuana and cutting benefits completely does leave the dependents adrift.

Most welfare systems are designed to benefit children because they are innocents and the idea that giving the children some support and a chance at a better life will cost taxpayers less down the road if a higher percentage of those children become productive citizens though it is widely understood a relatively high percentage will follow their parents path.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 08:35 AM   #19

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plus some marijuana users (or rather "abusers" in this case) are in a state of near perpetual stupor
This I have witnessed first hand, many times!
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Old December 25th, 2017, 08:39 AM   #20
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What drugs are they testing for? I have the feeling most of the positives will be for marijuana which if alcohol is legal so should marijuana and cutting benefits completely does leave the dependents adrift.

Most welfare systems are designed to benefit children because they are innocents and the idea that giving the children some support and a chance at a better life will cost taxpayers less down the road if a higher percentage of those children become productive citizens though it is widely understood a relatively high percentage will follow their parents path.
until marijuana is legal that point is moot

also not all welfare recipients have children under 18.... moreover not all money that goes to welfare recipients actually benefits children... if the parents are drug addicts it more likely benefits the local drug dealer.... the children are often let to fend for themselves.... the thinking of the parents (that is if they do any thinking) being that they will be fed at school and helped in other ways by all kinds of groups and caring adults or perhaps grand parents
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