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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:56 PM   #11

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An economic system concerns how products are traded and prices set. It's fine to say free markets dont work, but what's the alternative? Supply and demand can adequately determine what needs to be produced, and for whom. the only other actor, in this case, is the state, and we know how that works out.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 06:02 PM   #12

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Originally Posted by orestes View Post
Another person that doesn't say that the Global Financial Crisis was a spectacular failure. The market is a failure also.
Economics is not an exact science. Is there such a thing as a perfect system, anywhere?
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Old December 31st, 2017, 07:28 PM   #13

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A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

. . .

People (of whatever background) like entertainment. That's just the reality. To pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

If you think societies shouldn't pour money into recreational activities/pursuits then find some way to make them like entertainment/pleasure much less than they actually do.

Also, many of those athletes and musicians could very easily do the labor intensive, hard physical work types of jobs that you've mentioned (and a few could even do some of the mentally demanding jobs as well, but that's certainly a smaller percentage). But they took a risk instead and decided to be creative instead or to push their bodies to their absolute limits. So I don't understand the argument that the construction worker (whose jobs will probably mostly be replaced by robots in the not too distant future anyway), or waste management worker or whatever other basic labor job is getting screwed over when the musician or athlete can do something that the overwhelming majority of these basic laborers couldn't come close to being able to do and can also do those basic labor jobs that they do with ease after a small amount of training.

However, your argument about how potential scientists and engineers have an unfair deal has much more merit in my opinion.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 07:50 PM   #14
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Economics is not an exact science. Is there such a thing as a perfect system, anywhere?
I would say it's not a science at all.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 10:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by notgivenaway View Post
Economics is not an exact science. Is there such a thing as a perfect system, anywhere?
Its not my point to state what a perfect system is or even whether one exists, the market system is as broken as any other system be it communism, feudalism, or communism.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 10:55 PM   #16

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
People (of whatever background) like entertainment. That's just the reality. To pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

If you think societies shouldn't pour money into recreational activities/pursuits then find some way to make them like entertainment/pleasure much less than they actually do.

Also, many of those athletes and musicians could very easily do the labor intensive, hard physical work types of jobs that you've mentioned (and a few could even do some of the mentally demanding jobs as well, but that's certainly a smaller percentage). But they took a risk instead and decided to be creative instead or to push their bodies to their absolute limits. So I don't understand the argument that the construction worker (whose jobs will probably mostly be replaced by robots in the not too distant future anyway), or waste management worker or whatever other basic labor job is getting screwed over when the musician or athlete can do something that the overwhelming majority of these basic laborers couldn't come close to being able to do and can also do those basic labor jobs that they do with ease after a small amount of training.

However, your argument about how potential scientists and engineers have an unfair deal has much more merit in my opinion.
@Ighayere

Have you read my response to tomar (as I began to address many of the points you are making, and if you would like to investigate them further, it would be more productive that you engage the arguments I have submitted thus far)?
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Old January 1st, 2018, 03:06 AM   #17

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if one assumes that humans are inherently stupid everything in the world start to make sense.

Last edited by gustavolapizza; January 1st, 2018 at 03:08 AM.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:18 AM   #18

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Not stupid but emotional. The majority of people's actions are determined by emotional responses rather than reasoned deliberation. The book, Freakonomics is a good exploration of this subject.

Last edited by Dan Howard; January 1st, 2018 at 06:22 AM.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:18 AM   #19

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What's the alternative ?

Attempts at other systems have failed spectacularly.....everyone (or almost everyone) ended up worse off
So you are saying that the average Russian or Khazak in 1991 was worse off then when they were in 1917? So was the average Chinese in 1978 worse off then he was in 1945?

If those statements are true, please provide empirical evidence, not just rhetoric.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 08:46 AM   #20
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So you are saying that the average Russian or Khazak in 1991 was worse off then when they were in 1917? So was the average Chinese in 1978 worse off then he was in 1945?

If those statements are true, please provide empirical evidence, not just rhetoric.
I did not make such statements, you are the one who is doing that, and choosing some arbitrary dates (and dates with huge time lags which make the comparison totally skewed)

I note you did not choose 1938 for example in Stalinist Russia. How great was the average soviet doing then compared to, say Poland or Finland ?
And how is the average chinese doing in 2017 compared to 1978 ?.....How was the average chinese doing in 1978 vs the average taiwanese ? better yet how is the average chinese today doing compared to the average north korean today ? How is the average south korean today doing compared to the average North korean today.



Still re kazakhs and russians they were

a - Significantly worse off in 1991 than they are today
b- Significantly worse in 1991 that in similar countries that did not go communist (for example Finland)

That's a matter of fact and that's why the USSR collapsed. And that's what the russians and kazakhs themselves are majoritarily saying

Comparing 1991 to 1917 is nonsensical, given the huge technological progress between the 2 dates

But since you are clearly intend on defending communist systems , please go ahead and provide evidence that over a period of time they were better economically than other systems
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