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Old November 10th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #541

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Originally Posted by Brisieis View Post
OK, I must admit, if I had a tranny in the house - he would have to dress like a man infront of younger siblings - this I can agree with. After all, external (as in clothing and mannerisms) influence DOES affect young kids. If an elder brother is prancing around the house and wearing dresses and high heels, this to me is something he should leave for whilst the young ones are not there to see it, it can influence them.

Hi, Briseis!

I’ve come across this post of yours (going back to last March) here

http://www.historum.com/philosophy-p...es-gay-10.html

and I just wanted to reply to it because, frankly, I find it disturbing. I know this post is going to sound very “preachy”, and I apologize in advance for that, but I can’t help it because I think there are some things that need to be said. I’d like to say, too, that although I’m new to this forum, I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you’re cool--which is one reason I’m posting this. With some people, you wouldn’t bother.

First of all, the term “tranny” is immensely offensive to transgender people. To call a transperson a “tranny” is like applying the N-word to Black people.

Next, if children have an older sibling (which in this case we’ll say is one born physically male), his clothing and mannerisms will not affect them. Transgenderism isn’t a contagious disease. Either you’re trans or you’re not, and if you’re not, no amount of exposure to transpeople is going to make you trans.

Imagine this scenario: the older child X has shown every sign of being trans. The parents take him to a psychologist expert in trans issues, and after a number of consultations, the psychologist is satisfied that the child is indeed trans. Therefore the parents agree to allow “her” to begin dressing and living as a girl.

Will the younger kids be confused? Of course they will. As will the parents, as will the transchild herself. Transgenderism is an extremely confusing thing, and it can take a transperson many years to truly understand him/herself. But the answer to the problem is counselling and education, not continuing ignorance.

The parents can explain matters to the younger children—something along these lines: “X is transgender. What is transgender? Well, you have boys and girls, and then there are transgender people, who are like a mix of boys and girls. X is like a boy in ways, but he’s also like a girl in ways. And we know that he’ll be happier living as a girl, so because we love “her” so much, that’s what we’re going to allow her to do.”

Now the younger children won’t understand straightaway. But what they will learn is that Transgenderism isn’t something shameful, something that needs to be hidden, and they’ll also learn that it’s OK to love a transperson. You’ll have children who’ll be set on the road towards ridding themselves of a prejudice they might otherwise have had.

If this scenario isn’t adopted, what will be the result for the transchild? He’ll grow up with shame. Transpeople generally know from a very early age that they’re different, and they almost universally feel ashamed of themselves. They shouldn’t. If they’re trans, it’s not their fault. Nobody chooses to be trans. If you are trans, it’s simply the way you’re made, and it’s not your fault at all.

But trans people feel shame. And they feel guilt, fear (that someone will discover their secret), loneliness and alienation. They live under immense psychological pressure. The result is that (as recent surveys have shown) some 40% of them will attempt suicide at some point in their lives. In the US the suicide rate among transpeople is 26 times the rate among cispeople (non-transpeople). Transpeople also have very high rates of depression and drug abuse.

To give a real-life case: I’ve recently been in contact with a young transguy who’s just come out of the closet. His family’s not happy, all of his friends have abandoned him, and he’s pretty much in a state of despair these days.

This is the life of a transperson who finds no acceptance or understanding in society or even among those who supposedly love and respect him. I can understand the cisperson’s aversion to Transgenderism. Just as heterosexual people naturally feel distaste for homosexuality, cispeople naturally feel distaste for Transgenderism. But should that distaste extend to the prejudice and discrimination that transpeople routinely face and that drives them to depression, drugs and suicide? Well, that’s the question the cisworld is in the process of answering these days.

Briseis, I hope that the foregoing won’t offend you in any way. I don’t mean to offend you, because as I said, I do have a lot of respect for you. I simply felt that all this needed to be said.

Best wishes, Foxglove
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:30 AM   #542

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My opinion here is the opinion of the church. (Note, I am just giving what I think so please be respectful.) I believe that homosexuality is a sin. God still loves them, but it should be stopped nonetheless. I do not advocate persecution, because that is not Christian. I do advocate seeing Gays, Lesbians, and transgender for what they are.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:42 AM   #543
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I'd say, as I have in fact said, that I think people do things rather than are things, and our current obsession with classifying humans by their behaviour limits their development. Which is not to say that what people want to do isn't fine anyway, if it hurts no-one else, or that people should pretend to want other than they do.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:03 AM   #544

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Originally Posted by Gile na Gile View Post
Fact of the matter is that it's abnormal in many areas and no amount of de-stigmatising talk sessions will ever erase that reality. Growing up confessing a tolerance for homosexuality will get you demoted very rapidly amongst your circle of peers in most post-pubertal age sets. This set of attitudes simply mushrooms outwards and becomes the de facto attitudinal stance of all and sundry come adulthood. It takes an exceptional character in such, as Rosi calls them, 'harsh environments' to buck that trend and effect a rapport or a means by which the community at large can accomodate the emergence of homosexuality.


(Can't remember if I replied to this)

And yet Caesar, Socrates and Alexander the Great were supposedly fond of Greek love, not to mention the most manly of all men - the Spartans.

Animals are gay too, who cares? I'd only be disappointed about the lack of grandchildren.

Nature does what it wants, should we listen to the perennial expectations of modern society or enjoy our limited experience of the world before an eternity of darkness?

If the gentle art of bumming was wrong you'd probably have to lock up most of the pervy straight people in the world anyway...
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:07 AM   #545
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To Opinion of the Church:
So you believe homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned, that a bunch of zombies rose from the grave and walked around Jerusalem in the first century CE, and that hyenas regularly change sex, and you NEVER wear two different fabrics at once or eat shellfish? Or can it be you've never really read your precious bible from cover to cover (and yes, i have, many times). Or maybe you just don't like gay men and women and will use any excuse to justify your prejudice.

And BTW, when people like you spout such nonsense i see no reason to be particularly respectful.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:09 AM   #546

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If he says he's gay, get on with it. Chances are he's going to stay that way. It doesn't really hurt anyone. Make it so he at least has a friendly face at home.

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Originally Posted by Foxglove View Post
Hi, Briseis!

I’ve come across this post of yours (going back to last March) here

http://www.historum.com/philosophy-p...es-gay-10.html
A pretty excellent description. Gender is determined biologically, the same as sex. If some one has a transgender-ed older sibling they may copy slightly how they dress but only if he's their only male role model in their life, and unless you keep the child locked in the house with no tv or books then that isn't going to happen.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #547

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Originally Posted by NonXNonExX View Post
To Opinion of the Church:
So you believe homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned, that a bunch of zombies rose from the grave and walked around Jerusalem in the first century CE, and that hyenas regularly change sex, and you NEVER wear two different fabrics at once or eat shellfish? Or can it be you've never really read your precious bible from cover to cover (and yes, i have, many times). Or maybe you just don't like gay men and women and will use any excuse to justify your prejudice.

And BTW, when people like you spout such nonsense i see no reason to be particularly respectful.

I agree entirely, although we're obliged to be tolerant of these intolerant views because otherwise we'd be intolerant.

Funny old world.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #548

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Gender is determined biologically, the same as sex
Gender is not the same as biological sex. They are not the same, though they are often incorrectly used interchangeably. Gender is more than just biology.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:36 AM   #549

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Originally Posted by NonXNonExX View Post
To Opinion of the Church:
So you believe homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned, that a bunch of zombies rose from the grave and walked around Jerusalem in the first century CE, and that hyenas regularly change sex, and you NEVER wear two different fabrics at once or eat shellfish? Or can it be you've never really read your precious bible from cover to cover (and yes, i have, many times). Or maybe you just don't like gay men and women and will use any excuse to justify your prejudice.

And BTW, when people like you spout such nonsense i see no reason to be particularly respectful.
@NonXNonExX: Thank you for bringing this up. I find this misconception around all the time. The problem is people do not understand what they read in the Bible. It clearly states in the Old Testament Law that the things you mentioned should or should not be done, but the fact of the matter is that those same people who claim to have read the Bible do not take into account the New Testament. In the New Testament, or covenant if you will, the Law has been fulfilled by Jesus' sacrifice, due to this we are no longer under the Law, but we are under Grace. Now some would point to this and say that Homosexuality and Adultery are no longer sins, but on the contrary Paul decries it in his epistles. Even Jesus himself pardons the Adulteress, but he tells her to sin no more. Forgiveness is not about what we were, but what we should become.

As for not liking Gay men or Lesbian Women, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think that they are lost, and I should love them as God loved me when I was lost. I have neighbors who are homosexual, and my creed is to love my neighbors as myself. I should not, and do not, agree with their life style, but I should never use someone's sin as an excuse not to try and reach them.

I do have a question for you when you are done with the rest of my post though. If you say we should be tolerant and unprejudiced, what about my ideas and beliefs? It doesn't really matter to me, but I am just wondering.

Thank you for bringing up these points.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:37 AM   #550

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Gender is not the same as biological sex. Gender is a social construct.
I know they're not the same. Gender identity is what I meant to say. I should have been clearer in my post.
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