Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum - Perennial Ideas and Debates that cross societal/time boundaries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 12th, 2012, 07:38 AM   #551

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,365
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemage View Post
I know they're not the same. Gender identity is what I meant to say. I should have been clearer in my post.

ah, fair enough then.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 12th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #552

Earl_of_Rochester's Avatar
Scoundrel
¤ Member of the Year ¤
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Perambulating in St James' Park
Posts: 11,456

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
@NonXNonExX: Thank you for bringing this up. I find this misconception around all the time. The problem is people do not understand what they read in the Bible. It clearly states in the Old Testament Law that the things you mentioned should or should not be done, but the fact of the matter is that those same people who claim to have read the Bible do not take into account the New Testament. In the New Testament, or covenant if you will, the Law has been fulfilled by Jesus' sacrifice, due to this we are no longer under the Law, but we are under Grace. Now some would point to this and say that Homosexuality and Adultery are no longer sins, but on the contrary Paul decries it in his epistles. Even Jesus himself pardons the Adulteress, but he tells her to sin no more. Forgiveness is not about what we were, but what we should become.

As for not liking Gay men or Lesbian Women, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think that they are lost, and I should love them as God loved me when I was lost. I have neighbors who are homosexual, and my creed is to love my neighbors as myself. I should not, and do not, agree with their life style, but I should never use someone's sin as an excuse not to try and reach them.

I do have a question for you when you are done with the rest of my post though. If you say we should be tolerant and unprejudiced, what about my ideas and beliefs? It doesn't really matter to me, but I am just wondering.

Thank you for bringing up these points.


Wasn't Mary Magdalene a bit of a goer?

Also, does JC explicitly state that homosexuals are sinners or is this speculation by the church/some guy in the desert 2000 years ago?

Would this style of sin also include oral sex and all other forms of copulation which aren't covered by the missionary style? How about masturbation? Where do we draw the line? Or are all humans condemned to fire and brimstone for having a bit of self relief?

I bet even the Pope sins like that occasionally.
Earl_of_Rochester is online now  
Old November 12th, 2012, 07:55 AM   #553

Foxglove's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 444

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
My opinion here is the opinion of the church. (Note, I am just giving what I think so please be respectful.) I believe that homosexuality is a sin. God still loves them, but it should be stopped nonetheless. I do not advocate persecution, because that is not Christian. I do advocate seeing Gays, Lesbians, and transgender for what they are.
One might argue that you're not seeing LGBT people for what they are. You're seeing them the way the church wants you to see them. See them the way they are, you'll stop seeing them as sinners.

Oh, and thank you so much for not advocating persecution. I don't advocate persecution myself. On the whole, I consider it a bad thing.
Foxglove is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 07:56 AM   #554
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: May 2010
From: Rhondda
Posts: 2,964

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Wasn't Mary Magdalene a bit of a goer?

Also, does JC explicitly state that homosexuals are sinners or is this speculation by the church/some guy in the desert 2000 years ago?

Would this style of sin also include oral sex and all other forms of copulation which aren't covered by the missionary style? How about masturbation? Where do we draw the line? Or are all humans condemned to fire and brimstone for having a bit of self relief?

I bet even the Pope sins like that occasionally.
I was brought up on the New Testament and can't recall much more that is relevant than the woman taken in adultery ('Neither do I condemn thee - go , and sin no more'). Is it stuff in the Epistles I'm missing, or just deductions from prejudicial habits of mind therein? I am always baffled by American fundamentalism: it seems to me muddled Judaism at best - but I don't include M ut p in that grotesque gallere.
Iolo is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 07:56 AM   #555
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: USA
Posts: 4,015

I have a nephew who is gay. I do not think of him any less, he is family and I love him just the same.
Virgil is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 08:08 AM   #556

Earl_of_Rochester's Avatar
Scoundrel
¤ Member of the Year ¤
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Perambulating in St James' Park
Posts: 11,456

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
I was brought up on the New Testament and can't recall much more that is relevant than the woman taken in adultery ('Neither do I condemn thee - go , and sin no more'). Is it stuff in the Epistles I'm missing, or just deductions from prejudicial habits of mind therein? I am always baffled by American fundamentalism: it seems to me muddled Judaism at best - but I don't include M ut p in that grotesque gallere.

IMHO it appears to be muddled with whatever mainstream American fundamentalism/televangelism/Christian society thinks best.

I also have reason to believe that sexual suppression is directly related to religious visions/feelings of ecstasy/extremism/self flagellation etc.

Ted_Haggard Ted_Haggard

All that testosterone and no relief for natural urges can't be good for you.



Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa


Quote:
Given the sexualized imagery of St. Teresa's written account of the experience,[10] some critics have seen in the statue a depiction of physical orgasm; in particular, the body posture and facial expression of St. Teresa have caused some to assign her experience as one of climactic moment.[11] Jacques Lacan, for example, whilst discussing the female orgasm, said that "you only have to go and look at Bernini's statue in Rome to understand immediately that she's coming, there is no doubt about it.
Click the image to open in full size.


Now imagine you're a nun or a priest and you go months and months, maybe years without getting any. What do you think the result would be?

Last edited by Earl_of_Rochester; November 12th, 2012 at 08:16 AM.
Earl_of_Rochester is online now  
Old November 12th, 2012, 09:03 AM   #557
Historian
¤ Member of the Year ¤
 
Joined: Sep 2011
From: Egotistical.Apes.Ruining.This.Habitat
Posts: 17,661
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxglove View Post
Hi, Briseis!

I’ve come across this post of yours (going back to last March) here

http://www.historum.com/philosophy-p...es-gay-10.html

and I just wanted to reply to it because, frankly, I find it disturbing. I know this post is going to sound very “preachy”, and I apologize in advance for that, but I can’t help it because I think there are some things that need to be said. I’d like to say, too, that although I’m new to this forum, I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you’re cool--which is one reason I’m posting this. With some people, you wouldn’t bother.

First of all, the term “tranny” is immensely offensive to transgender people. To call a transperson a “tranny” is like applying the N-word to Black people.

Next, if children have an older sibling (which in this case we’ll say is one born physically male), his clothing and mannerisms will not affect them. Transgenderism isn’t a contagious disease. Either you’re trans or you’re not, and if you’re not, no amount of exposure to transpeople is going to make you trans.

Imagine this scenario: the older child X has shown every sign of being trans. The parents take him to a psychologist expert in trans issues, and after a number of consultations, the psychologist is satisfied that the child is indeed trans. Therefore the parents agree to allow “her” to begin dressing and living as a girl.

Will the younger kids be confused? Of course they will. As will the parents, as will the transchild herself. Transgenderism is an extremely confusing thing, and it can take a transperson many years to truly understand him/herself. But the answer to the problem is counselling and education, not continuing ignorance.

The parents can explain matters to the younger children—something along these lines: “X is transgender. What is transgender? Well, you have boys and girls, and then there are transgender people, who are like a mix of boys and girls. X is like a boy in ways, but he’s also like a girl in ways. And we know that he’ll be happier living as a girl, so because we love “her” so much, that’s what we’re going to allow her to do.”

Now the younger children won’t understand straightaway. But what they will learn is that Transgenderism isn’t something shameful, something that needs to be hidden, and they’ll also learn that it’s OK to love a transperson. You’ll have children who’ll be set on the road towards ridding themselves of a prejudice they might otherwise have had.

If this scenario isn’t adopted, what will be the result for the transchild? He’ll grow up with shame. Transpeople generally know from a very early age that they’re different, and they almost universally feel ashamed of themselves. They shouldn’t. If they’re trans, it’s not their fault. Nobody chooses to be trans. If you are trans, it’s simply the way you’re made, and it’s not your fault at all.

But trans people feel shame. And they feel guilt, fear (that someone will discover their secret), loneliness and alienation. They live under immense psychological pressure. The result is that (as recent surveys have shown) some 40% of them will attempt suicide at some point in their lives. In the US the suicide rate among transpeople is 26 times the rate among cispeople (non-transpeople). Transpeople also have very high rates of depression and drug abuse.

To give a real-life case: I’ve recently been in contact with a young transguy who’s just come out of the closet. His family’s not happy, all of his friends have abandoned him, and he’s pretty much in a state of despair these days.

This is the life of a transperson who finds no acceptance or understanding in society or even among those who supposedly love and respect him. I can understand the cisperson’s aversion to Transgenderism. Just as heterosexual people naturally feel distaste for homosexuality, cispeople naturally feel distaste for Transgenderism. But should that distaste extend to the prejudice and discrimination that transpeople routinely face and that drives them to depression, drugs and suicide? Well, that’s the question the cisworld is in the process of answering these days.

Briseis, I hope that the foregoing won’t offend you in any way. I don’t mean to offend you, because as I said, I do have a lot of respect for you. I simply felt that all this needed to be said.

Best wishes, Foxglove
Hi Foxglove, no worries we all have our opinions on matters.
Brisieis is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #558

Callisto's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: The Mile High City
Posts: 197

If you judge people, you have no time to love them. - Mother Teresa
Callisto is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 10:09 AM   #559

Silkroad's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: USA
Posts: 158

That whole supercilious and self-righteous xtianity thing might work for some xtians, but not all of humanity is settled in that category. That said; let’s move on to quoting sacred text. The OT mentions homosexuality in Leviticus twice—it’s the same thing repeated so count it as one mention L 18:22 and 20:13 mention it in the context of sexual relationships between different classes of people. Among all those forbidden things it is just one among others. Then there is the Paul’s letter to the Corinthians 1 that mentions homosexuality. The entire furor over god’s condemnation of homosexuality is based on these few references and much later interpretations of scripture.

One other thing worth mentioning here is that Paul was very aware of the fact, and so were later interpreters of the text, that the developing community of early xtians needed to create a distinct boundary that differentiated them from the rest of the Hellenistic world. Hence, the issue of homosexuality—not exactly a red button item at the time in the Graeco-Roman world—as a differentiating factor was given more publicity than it warranted.

Considering that xtianity was/is a millennial cult and all focus on pleasure and the here and now are anathema, it also makes sense that sexual behavior of any kind that does not end up in pregnancy and the punishment of women is suspect and ought to be forbidden.

Yeah, I doubt that the xtian god cared much about any of that. Then again those who wrote the text certainly wanted to push their agenda.

I mean seriously, if man is created in gods image and that god loves all of his creation—as is postulated often enough—then what’s the problem? Since LBGT are created in god’s image, they are like her/him—s/he has the same proclivities because, as we know human sexuality encompasses a spectrum from straight to gay and everything in-between. Second, if god is love anyhow, then why all the hate?

Historically, homosexuality has always been around and is found in every culture. Granted, its acceptance has wavered through time and place, but in general homophobia is a somewhat recent invention. Somewhere I read that the Edwardian Age was the first real turnaround in that regard, at least in Europe.

Also, most of the concern regarding homosexual behavior is a social construct—albeit by now an apparently ingrained one for some—that had more to do with passing on wealth through inheritance and the use having children in common has to cement peace and prosperity [and of course the whole pure bloodline thing that is so important to monarchies], than anything else.
Of course, there is the general distaste people seem to have for those who are OTHER.

If I had a homosexual child I would love it and make sure that s/he understands that if s/he wants to change the way s/he is treated s/he better be prepared to be a public figure and willing to fight for acceptance.
Silkroad is offline  
Old November 12th, 2012, 10:17 AM   #560

Wenge's Avatar
American
 
Joined: Apr 2011
From: The True Capital of China
Posts: 8,244

If my son were to tell me he was gay I would ask him the same questions I would ask my son or daughter in a straight relationship. Are they good to you? What are the chances of the relationship working? When are you bringing the sucker to dinner so we can all meet him? What's the big deal?
Wenge is online now  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology

Tags
gay, son, tells


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.