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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #561

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Originally Posted by Callisto View Post
If you judge people, you have no time to love them. - Mother Teresa
Yeah, I love to love as Christian, because the emotion varies from pain to glorious moments. I will suffer from so much pain if my son is gay, though I am tolerant of them, but I do not want my own to be like them. However, if that happens the process of acceptance shall be so painful to me, but, because of my love to my own child it shall be glorious that I shall conquer the fact of his being gay and there goes the love to my fellowmen.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #562
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IMHO on a global scale human society is already as a whole in the right way; with some luck in some generations it wouldn't be considered any great personal merit or achievement to merely accept the sexual preferences of other people.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #563

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Wasn't Mary Magdalene a bit of a goer?

Also, does JC explicitly state that homosexuals are sinners or is this speculation by the church/some guy in the desert 2000 years ago?

Would this style of sin also include oral sex and all other forms of copulation which aren't covered by the missionary style? How about masturbation? Where do we draw the line? Or are all humans condemned to fire and brimstone for having a bit of self relief?

I bet even the Pope sins like that occasionally.
Well, I am afraid I can not find anything to support your theory of Mary Magdalene. The thing I can tell you is that Jesus did not explicitly condemn Homosexuality, but whenever he refers to marriage he says, "Man and Women". Plus, as I said in my previous post, Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, and the Law explicitly wrote homosexuality as a sin. This leads then that Christ viewed homosexuality as a sin. More than that, if you believe on the Bible, one can't take only certain pieces. Paul points out that homosexuality is sinful. Paul was no guy in the desert. He was a top-educated, higher echelon, well-traveled, Roman Citizen. I don't want to sound like a broken tape-recorder, but it is worth repeating: Forgiveness is not about what we were, but what we should become.

As for other forms of copulation, I would say that it depends. I am no Theological scholar mind you, but I believe the Bible gives us standards. Do not commit adultery. Any intercourse with a person not your spouse is sin, and I would point out that Jesus classifies even thinking lustful thoughts of another women is adultery. Anything else, between you and your wife (or husband as the case may be) is just that between you and her. Although, 100% my own opinion here, I would not want my wife to subjected to anything that would make her feel slighted like that. But that is up to personal conviction.

I just want to ask by the way, why do you think I am catholic? The Pope is human, and he can/does sin like the rest of us. Stalin was a sadist. Are all Communists, socialists, and Marxists sadists? Al qaeda are muslim. Are all Muslims terrorists?Idi Amin Dada was a butcher. Are all Africans baby killers? I would suggest that broad generalizations like that are unhelpful and slightly illogical.

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Then there is the Paul’s letter to the Corinthians 1 that mentions homosexuality. The entire furor over god’s condemnation of homosexuality is based on these few references and much later interpretations of scripture.
But the Bible still makes it a sin, and sin is evil. That being said no sin is bigger than another in God's eyes. If I lie, that is still as bad as any other sin. The thing to remember is that one has to stop sinning.

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I mean seriously, if man is created in gods image and that god loves all of his creation—as is postulated often enough—then what’s the problem? Since LBGT are created in god’s image, they are like her/him—s/he has the same proclivities because, as we know human sexuality encompasses a spectrum from straight to gay and everything in-between. Second, if god is love anyhow, then why all the hate?
True, we are made in God's image, but that image has been corrupted by sin, and the LBGT is just another effect of our fallen state. We should love everyone, but love does not mean that we do nothing about a dangerous action. In fact, love often demands a response. If we love a person, do we let them put a bullet in their mouths? If we love our children, do we let them play in a busy crosswalk. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, and a sin is the ultimate danger, because one is transgressing the infinite maker of the universe. It means that one of the ways I can express my love for a LBGT community is to help them with this sin.

I apologize for the wall of text.

P.S: Sorry if this is thread jacking. I am just answering questions that arise. Please let me know if it is getting inappropriate.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #564

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It's interesting watching people's reactions to the question.
It cuts to something fundamental in a person, and from observation it is not so much a religious based thing. Their response is from their gut.

People will be clearly:
"Eh, it's not very important. I'd love my son all the same."
or "I couldn't handle it. I'd have some extreme reaction."

Fundamental emotional drives competing in a person.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #565

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Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
Well, I am afraid I can not find anything to support your theory of Mary Magdalene. The thing I can tell you is that Jesus did not explicitly condemn Homosexuality, but whenever he refers to marriage he says, "Man and Women". Plus, as I said in my previous post, Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, and the Law explicitly wrote homosexuality as a sin. This leads then that Christ viewed homosexuality as a sin. More than that, if you believe on the Bible, one can't take only certain pieces. Paul points out that homosexuality is sinful. Paul was no guy in the desert. He was a top-educated, higher echelon, well-traveled, Roman Citizen. I don't want to sound like a broken tape-recorder, but it is worth repeating: Forgiveness is not about what we were, but what we should become.

As for other forms of copulation, I would say that it depends. I am no Theological scholar mind you, but I believe the Bible gives us standards. Do not commit adultery. Any intercourse with a person not your spouse is sin, and I would point out that Jesus classifies even thinking lustful thoughts of another women is adultery. Anything else, between you and your wife (or husband as the case may be) is just that between you and her. Although, 100% my own opinion here, I would not want my wife to subjected to anything that would make her feel slighted like that. But that is up to personal conviction.

I just want to ask by the way, why do you think I am catholic? The Pope is human, and he can/does sin like the rest of us. Stalin was a sadist. Are all Communists, socialists, and Marxists sadists? Al qaeda are muslim. Are all Muslims terrorists?Idi Amin Dada was a butcher. Are all Africans baby killers? I would suggest that broad generalizations like that are unhelpful and slightly illogical.

Rumour being that Mary was a harlot, although she's been written out of the Bible as it's had several authors and been chopped and changed a fair few times. How anyone can tell what's gospel any more is a miracle.

The reference to the Pope merely being the most pious person I could think of.

I believe in a form of God I suppose, not spiritual but 'the way of life' if there is such a thing. I look for signs for how the world really is by observing nature. Since there's plenty of gay animals and we're just smart apes I figure being gay is just another variation of the natural world, a bit like being ginger or having freckles.

Last edited by Earl_of_Rochester; November 12th, 2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #566

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorian View Post
It's interesting watching people's reactions to the question.
It cuts to something fundamental in a person, and from observation it is not so much a religious based thing. Their response is from their gut.

People will be clearly:
"Eh, it's not very important. I'd love my son all the same."
or "I couldn't handle it. I'd have some extreme reaction."

Fundamental emotional drives competing in a person.
There are things inbetween not thinking it important and not being able to handle it. I would be disappointed, for instance, as I'd rather my sons got married to women, had children etc. But if one of them told me he was gay, I would accept it, and not make a fuss about it. Wouodn't exactly be thrilled though.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:27 PM   #567

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Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
True, we are made in God's image, but that image has been corrupted by sin, and the LBGT is just another effect of our fallen state. We should love everyone, but love does not mean that we do nothing about a dangerous action. . . I believe that homosexuality is a sin, and a sin is the ultimate danger, because one is transgressing the infinite maker of the universe. It means that one of the ways I can express my love for a LBGT community is to help them with this sin.
Hello, MUP! This post is a perfect illustration as to why I personally have a hard time with religion. I grew up in an extremely religious home myself, but abandoned the faith at an early age.

Now I was taught that God loves us and that God is omnipotent. Now if God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants. Which means that if he doesn't like LGBT people, he can prevent them from being born LGBT. Since he doesn't do that, one might presume that he's not as much opposed to them as certain people would have us believe.

If God loves us, then why make people such that they are by definition sinners? Why make them such that they're guaranteed a lifetime of unhappiness? I find that a rather odd sort of love.

It's not any god that dislikes LGBT people, it's people who dislike them. And then they create their god in their own image, and they put their own words in his mouth. People dislike and despise LGBT people, and then they blame it on their god so that they can feel good about themselves.

Your faith defines homosexuality/transgenderism as a sin. Would you like me to show you how insulting you're being? Like this: this is something that I've heard said often enough, though I can assure you I don't believe it or say it myself: "Anyone who professes a religious faith is of low intelligence."

Do you see how easy it is to come up with definitions that are insulting and degrading?

You believe that homosexuality/transgenderism is a sin? It's precisely that attitude that drives LGBT people to despair, sometimes to suicide. You say you want to help us with our "sin"? It isn't a sin, but if you truly want to help us, you can change your attitude. It's this sort of attitude that wrecks a lot of lives. Is this what you want "Christian love" to achieve?
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:59 AM   #568

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Originally Posted by Foxglove View Post
Hello, MUP! This post is a perfect illustration as to why I personally have a hard time with religion. I grew up in an extremely religious home myself, but abandoned the faith at an early age.

Now I was taught that God loves us and that God is omnipotent. Now if God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants. Which means that if he doesn't like LGBT people, he can prevent them from being born LGBT. Since he doesn't do that, one might presume that he's not as much opposed to them as certain people would have us believe.

If God loves us, then why make people such that they are by definition sinners? Why make them such that they're guaranteed a lifetime of unhappiness? I find that a rather odd sort of love.

It's not any god that dislikes LGBT people, it's people who dislike them. And then they create their god in their own image, and they put their own words in his mouth. People dislike and despise LGBT people, and then they blame it on their god so that they can feel good about themselves.

Your faith defines homosexuality/transgenderism as a sin. Would you like me to show you how insulting you're being? Like this: this is something that I've heard said often enough, though I can assure you I don't believe it or say it myself: "Anyone who professes a religious faith is of low intelligence."

Do you see how easy it is to come up with definitions that are insulting and degrading?

You believe that homosexuality/transgenderism is a sin? It's precisely that attitude that drives LGBT people to despair, sometimes to suicide. You say you want to help us with our "sin"? It isn't a sin, but if you truly want to help us, you can change your attitude. It's this sort of attitude that wrecks a lot of lives. Is this what you want "Christian love" to achieve?


It would appear that "God's love" doesn't care whether gay people are happy or not, provided they conform to the way of the Lord, or whatever mainstream Christian society happens to believe at the time.

There's openly gay bishops in the UK, that'll cause some confusion at the pearly gates.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:10 AM   #569

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How would you react if your mother told you she was a lesbian? This happened to one of my friends.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:53 AM   #570

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How would you react if your mother told you she was a lesbian? This happened to one of my friends.
I would have been extremely surprised. But given the tenacity with which she pursued my father when she was young, it seems rather improbable.
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