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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:48 AM   #571

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
It would appear that "God's love" doesn't care whether gay people are happy or not, provided they conform to the way of the Lord, or whatever mainstream Christian society happens to believe at the time.
I never understood "God's love" myself. All it ever did for me was make me unhappy.

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There's openly gay bishops in the UK, that'll cause some confusion at the pearly gates.
Which will certainly be an improvement over the clarity that often reigns on Earth.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:51 AM   #572

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Originally Posted by larkin View Post
We are not sure why it happens, but it does.

We know it is not the result of an amoral upbringing.

Of course this is hypothetical, but what would you do if your teenage son came to you and said,

"I think I might be gay..."
Sorry, but I just have my own old fashioned views on this.

I'd just look unruffled and nonchalant. I'd spike his cuppa regularly on the quiet with a mild dose of proven aphrodisiac. BTW, Vitamin E also happens to have a certain virilising effect.

I'd start taking him to some seedy night clubs with an ample supply of attractive, ready and willing females. I might pay one or two of them, or several if necessary - again on the quiet - suitable ones, to, well, contribute their 'expertise' and 'experience' toward developing a preferred solution to my problem. I'd also keep close watch on this son so that his eyes don't stray to the other side, the side that you'd rather they don't.

Maybe introduce him to the pleasures of sensual massage by an experienced female masseuse.

Does any of that that sound comical? I don't know, but I might try them all it if it happened to me.

A brother in law of mine was known to have been a bit on the 'soft' side, so to speak, when he was in his teens. He in fact once entered a 'beauty contest' for 'soft' types like him, wearing makeup, lipstick and all. But in our culture of that time, it was considered just a phase that guys like him passed through. He never became an outright gay in the proper sense of the word, so to speak.

Eventually, he married my elder sister. Now they have 5 children and 10 grandchildren. And his 'mannerisms' have 'improved' by leaps and bounds over the years. Although you would still detect or suspect a certain 'different' past if you observe him closely and regularly.

A son of his seemed to be of a similar vein when he was younger, but my brothers and I kept close surveillance on him, counselled him regularly, encouraged him to develop an interest in physical things like robust sports, working out in the gym and such like. He passed out of his 'phase' much better than his father. Now he's happily married with 4 kids, no problems whatsoever.

Sorry to have rambled, but I thought I should share.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 13th, 2012 at 04:48 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:08 AM   #573

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Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
In fact, love often demands a response. If we love a person, do we let them put a bullet in their mouths? If we love our children, do we let them play in a busy crosswalk.
Spot on. Whatever happened to tough love?

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Since there's plenty of gay animals and we're just smart apes I figure being gay is just another variation of the natural world, a bit like being ginger or having freckles.
Which animals? Not cows or goats or horses, I'm sure. I lived with animals and these never were.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 13th, 2012 at 04:51 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 06:10 AM   #574
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It's interesting watching people's reactions to the question.
It cuts to something fundamental in a person, and from observation it is not so much a religious based thing. Their response is from their gut.

People will be clearly:
"Eh, it's not very important. I'd love my son all the same."
or "I couldn't handle it. I'd have some extreme reaction."

Fundamental emotional drives competing in a person.

As a Dad of two kids my response is simple:
Who cares? Your mom still wants to smother grandkids (WHEN YOU"RE OLDER NOT NOW!!!).
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Old November 13th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #575

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Which animals? Not cows or goats or horses, I'm sure. I lived with animals and these never were.
Ducks. Toads.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #576
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And bonobos!!!

WARNING; Explicit images ahead!

(If this image may be against the rules of Historum, please accept my apologies and delete it)

Click the image to open in full size.

An example of female homosexuality.

Read More Bonobo: Peace Through Pleasure - Behavior

Not to mention the easily verifiable high prevalence of homosexual behavior among the exotic species Canis lupus familiaris (dogs)
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Old November 13th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #577

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post

I'd start taking him to some seedy night clubs with an ample supply of attractive, ready and willing females. I might pay one or two of them, or several if necessary - again on the quiet - suitable ones, to, well, contribute their 'expertise' and 'experience' toward developing a preferred solution to my problem. I'd also keep close watch on this son so that his eyes don't stray to the other side, the side that you'd rather they don't.

Maybe introduce him to the pleasures of sensual massage by an experienced female masseuse.

Daddy, there's been something I've been meaning to tell you...



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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
And bonobos!!!

WARNING; Explicit images ahead!

(If this image may be against the rules of Historum, please accept my apologies and delete it)

Click the image to open in full size.

An example of female homosexuality.

Read More Bonobo: Peace Through Pleasure - Behavior

Not to mention the easily verifiable high prevalence of homosexual behavior among the exotic species Canis lupus familiaris (dogs)


She looks familiar.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 08:33 AM   #578

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post

A brother in law of mine was known to have been a bit on the 'soft' side, so to speak, when he was in his teens. . .

A son of his seemed to be of a similar vein when he was younger. . .
Have you ever considered the possibility that they're bisexual? And you're not assuming that what is true of two people is true of all, are you?

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Spot on. Whatever happened to tough love?
Happily, it's going out of fashion now because people have copped on that it's not really love. It's just bullying somebody into being what you want them to be.


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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Which animals? Not cows or goats or horses, I'm sure. I lived with animals and these never were.
My favorite is the sea hare. I'm providing a link to the article in the French version of Wikipedia, because it's fuller than the English version.

Aplysia Aplysia

This is my translation of the relevant passage:

The creature is hermaphroditic. During mating involving two individuals, each employs each of its sex organs in turn. When other sea hares see mating in progress, they join in, which leads to collective mating that can involve a large number of individuals. In this case, the creatures can use their male and female organs at the same time.


Human variation in sexual/gender orientation seems a bit tame by comparison.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Sorry, but I just have my own old fashioned views on this.

I'd just look unruffled and nonchalant. I'd spike his cuppa regularly on the quiet with a mild dose of proven aphrodisiac. BTW, Vitamin E also happens to have a certain virilising effect.

I'd start taking him to some seedy night clubs with an ample supply of attractive, ready and willing females. I might pay one or two of them, or several if necessary - again on the quiet - suitable ones, to, well, contribute their 'expertise' and 'experience' toward developing a preferred solution to my problem. I'd also keep close watch on this son so that his eyes don't stray to the other side, the side that you'd rather they don't.

Maybe introduce him to the pleasures of sensual massage by an experienced female masseuse.

Does any of that that sound comical? I don't know, but I might try them all it if it happened to me.

A brother in law of mine was known to have been a bit on the 'soft' side, so to speak, when he was in his teens. He in fact once entered a 'beauty contest' for 'soft' types like him, wearing makeup, lipstick and all. But in our culture of that time, it was considered just a phase that guys like him passed through. He never became an outright gay in the proper sense of the word, so to speak.

Eventually, he married my elder sister. Now they have 5 children and 10 grandchildren. And his 'mannerisms' have 'improved' by leaps and bounds over the years. Although you would still detect or suspect a certain 'different' past if you observe him closely and regularly.

A son of his seemed to be of a similar vein when he was younger, but my brothers and I kept close surveillance on him, counselled him regularly, encouraged him to develop an interest in physical things like robust sports, working out in the gym and such like. He passed out of his 'phase' much better than his father. Now he's happily married with 4 kids, no problems whatsoever.

Sorry to have rambled, but I thought I should share.
Sorry to break it to you, but not all gay guys have feminine habits and no amount on trying to "fix" them will do much, other than make them feel bad. It's mostly, if not all, hard wiring in the brain. Making a gay guy spend quality time with the fair sex will be just as affective in making a straight guy visit the local clubs.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #580

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I believe in a form of God I suppose, not spiritual but 'the way of life' if there is such a thing. I look for signs for how the world really is by observing nature. Since there's plenty of gay animals and we're just smart apes I figure being gay is just another variation of the natural world, a bit like being ginger or having freckles.
This is the trouble I suppose. I know from your previous posts that you are a logical fellow, but on the other hand I like to think that I fairly logical as well. The problem arises because we have two different world views. Because we are both applying logic to different world views, we come up with tremendously different answers. I come up against the same problem when chatting with my Professors and other colleagues. You believe that homosexuality is a naturally occurring process, in which case yes it should be allowed, but I believe that it is an effect of the sin nature, in which case it should be stopped. You believe that we are evolved from animals, while I believe that were created by The Divine Creator. I do not mind at all debating about it, and I do enjoy sharing what I believe. I think it is the right way, but I also respect that your own thoughts on the subject are just as important to you. Perhaps we won't finally know who was right until we meet each other at the other side.

Quote:
Hello, MUP! This post is a perfect illustration as to why I personally have a hard time with religion. I grew up in an extremely religious home myself, but abandoned the faith at an early age.

Now I was taught that God loves us and that God is omnipotent. Now if God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants. Which means that if he doesn't like LGBT people, he can prevent them from being born LGBT. Since he doesn't do that, one might presume that he's not as much opposed to them as certain people would have us believe.

If God loves us, then why make people such that they are by definition sinners? Why make them such that they're guaranteed a lifetime of unhappiness? I find that a rather odd sort of love.

It's not any god that dislikes LGBT people, it's people who dislike them. And then they create their god in their own image, and they put their own words in his mouth. People dislike and despise LGBT people, and then they blame it on their god so that they can feel good about themselves.
Thank you for the greeting Foxglove. (were you being sarcastic?)

Well, I am sorry that you have bad memories of Christianity, and that some people who professed to be Christians have given you the wrong idea, I just hope that this might alleviate some of that. That is good question, and one that I have wrestled with myself before coming to know my God. I wondered, "How could an all powerful God let sin continue?" I mean if he is all powerful he would not let it continue right? He wouldn't be able to let it continue. It would be like a judge not sentencing an evil, murderous, sadistic, pedophilia, criminal. Evil should be wiped out or not in existence at all. I eventually realized though that this is a misunderstanding of true love. Many people accuse God of being unloving because he does not just step in and stop sin. There are three problems with that line of thinking.

1. He is love. love must be voluntary. If a man were to blackmail a women into loving him or program a computer into loving him, I think we would consider him the lowest of low. More than that, it would not be real love coming from the computer or women. It would be forced. God gives every man or women a choice. To love or not to love. It is the cosmic question. If he forced us to love him, would he be worthy of our love?
2. Building on that, you blame God for making people LGBT? I would disagree with that, but as I said above we probably have irreconcilable viewpoints. My viewpoint is that LGBT is an affect of the sin nature. If this is offensive to anyone, I deeply deeply apologize, but would you think more of me if I knew a truth and I said nothing instead?
3. My final point is that people think that God is doing nothing. God loved us, when we did not love him back. We were in the wrong and despised him, because he represented everything we should have, no could have, been if it were not for our sin. He couldn't accept us because we were in the wrong. He couldn't destroy or automate us, because that would have violated his nature of perfect love. Therefore, he made a plan through his son Jesus Christ. This plan would be to give mankind another chance to turn to God through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. It is not being Gay that disqualifies you from Heaven. It is transgressing a perfect God, who only wants the best for you. Whether it is LGBT, lying, stealing, murdering, thinking lustful thoughts, any and all of these disqualify us from fellowship with our God. That is where Jesus came in. He paid for these sins. If one accepts that and follows him. one is saved. It doesn't mean that Christians are perfect. It means they can get forgiveness of sins. "Your sins are forgiven: now go and sin no more."
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