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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:20 AM   #601

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
This is why science is limited to the observable and replicable. Doesn't it take as much faith to believe in the big bang, as to believe in God?
God and the Big Bang need not be mutually exclusive. The Big Bang could have been God's way of creating the universe. It need not have been a 6,000 year job, or 20,000 year job. It might have been a 13.8 billion year job.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:22 AM   #602

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
God and the Big Bang need not be mutually exclusive. The Big Bang could have been God's way of creating the universe. It need not have been a 6,000 year job, or 20,000 year job. It might have been a 13.8 billion year job.
Yet the bible claims it was a matter of days...
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:25 AM   #603

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6 days? That could be just a code.

A butterfly lives for only one day. That is one human-day. The average human lives for, let's just say, 75 years. So if a butterfly thinks Mr. T, its owner, is its 'god', then Mr. T would live by a factor of 75 x 365 times longer than his butterfly.

So 1 hour of Mr. T's time, in comparison, would be similar to 75 x 365 hours of his butterfly's time.

One can only wonder how many billions of years of human time it would take to be equivalent to '6 days' of God's time.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 14th, 2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #604

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6 days? That could be a code.
Exactly Rasta's point, right there.

Always a way to work around what the words of the bible actually say just so it can fit into the modern world and scientific facts.

If the bible is the truth and the word of god, would 6 days not be 6 days?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #605

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It's probably easier and more comforting for some people to believe that God is being metaphorical rather than believing that God is a metaphorical being.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #606

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I don't judge you. Who has the right to judge in a society? A rather simplistic example is a game. There are rules to this game that the maker of the game set down. Now someone cheats. Is it judging for the maker to call out the cheating? I am not judging you. The maker of the game is. He doesn't want to, because he loves you and gave you free will as the perfect expression of fairness, but you forced his hand by choosing to cheat when he gave you the option.
It is you who is doing the judging. What did Jesus say to the mob who wanted to punish the prostitute according to the "maker of the game"? According to god's law, she should have been put to death. That was the law. What did Jesus say to the mob?

"Throw stones at her head until she dies, you can't escape the maker's law!"

Or is that the complete opposite of what Jesus said?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

"Pluck the plank from your own eye before you pull the splinter from your brother's."

I find it fascinating that so many Christians seem to miss the fundamental meaning of Jesus teachings. Jesus argued against being judgmental, Jesus argued against interpreting scripture in a legalistic manner, Jesus taught a personal relationship.

How is anyone else's relationship any of your business?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #607

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
6 days? That could be a code.
Do you mean when the Bible says "6 days" it does not mean "6 days"? Maybe when the Bible says "love god" they don't mean "love god"?

Maybe the entire Bible is code?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:35 AM   #608

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Originally Posted by Brisieis View Post
Exactly Rasta's point, right there.

Always a way to work around what the words of the bible actually say just so it can fit into the modern world and scientific facts.

If the bible is the truth and the word of god, would 6 days not be 6 days?
It's almost like I am prophetic.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #609

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Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post

I don't judge you. Who has the right to judge in a society? A rather simplistic example is a game. There are rules to this game that the maker of the game set down. Now someone cheats. Is it judging for the maker to call out the cheating? I am not judging you. The maker of the game is.
We're getting into word games here. When you lump LGBT people in with liars, thieves, murderers and lustful people, you are judging them. Just because you're not judging them in the same way "the maker" is, doesn't mean you're not judging.

You did state earlier that your opinion is the opinion of your church. Presumably your membership of that church is voluntary. In that case, you must own up to the views that you say are yours. You can't foist them off on anybody else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
He doesn't want to, because he loves you and gave you free will as the perfect expression of fairness, but you forced his hand by choosing to cheat when he gave you the option.

No, we are imperfect because we are human. We go back full circle to original topic. We have different views of the world. I believe in a God. You do not believe in him. Because of this, we both analyze our worlds and come up with completely different arguments for what we believe. I believe LGBT is not something people are born with. You believe it is something we are born with. Our respective beliefs cause us both to want to spread our beliefs to the other in order that we might bring the other to a better understanding. We are debating beliefs and values here which makes things rather difficult.
It's in this passage that your fundamental error becomes clear, which is why your whole position on LGBT issues is wrong.

Here I won't speak for LGB people. They can speak for themselves if they want to. But who I can speak for is transpeople and this I can say categorically: no transperson exercises his/her free will in order to become trans. Being trans isn't a choice. No transperson ever chooses to be trans. It is the way we're made. It's a fundamental part of us. Just as females are female and males are male, transpeople are trans. Transgenderism is that basic to our personalities.

So you see, we haven't "cheated at any game". We haven't defied our maker. So if he chooses to punish us because we're so horrible, he's punishing us for something that is beyond our control.

You say this: I believe LGBT is not something people are born with. You believe it is something we are born with.

Here again you're wrong. I'm not speaking of my beliefs. I'm speaking of my knowledge. You're speaking of your beliefs, and your beliefs are mistaken.

Do you think transpeople have a choice? Virtually all transpeople will tell you of the guilt and shame they feel when, at a very early age, they begin to realize that they're different from other people. It's a very rare transperson who will tell you that they never felt any guilt and shame for being what they are.

Many, many transpeople will tell you of the struggles they engaged in for years trying to suppress the urges and instincts within that they felt so guilty and ashamed of. Society does give transpeople good reason to stay in the closet, and virtually all of them will remain in the closet for varying periods of time because they're afraid of revealing themselves to others, because they're ashamed to let others know what they are.

And you can ask transpeople this question: If you could take a magic pill that would free you of all your trans urges and instincts and allow you to be like the great majority, would you take it? Many, many transpeople say they would take it in a heartbeat. The ones who say they wouldn't are those who've gained a measure of self-acceptance and take the view, "I am what I am, and there's nothing wrong with me. Why change just to please others who don't know anything about me, but dislike me anyway?"

What I'm pointing out here is that when it comes to "free will", virtually all transpeople, for varying portions of their lives, exercise their free will in an attempt not to be trans. Rather than choosing to be trans, they work hard not to be. But they always fail--because, contrary to your mistaken belief, transgenderism isn't a choice. It's what you are, and you cannot change it.

So you see, you've got it all wrong. Transpeople don't exercise their free-will to go against their maker. They exercise their free-will to try to be exactly what you would like them to be. But they fail, because in the end, despite what you believe, they don't have any choice in the matter. So your loving, generous maker then condemns them for their "sin". Can see why I don't get particularly enthusiastic about your faith?

Do you think I'm wrong about all this? Do you think I'm talking rubbish? Do you want to put it to the test? I can put you onto a very large transgender forum. You can sign up and ask your question: "Did you choose to be trans? Are you trans of your own free will?" Or however you want to word it. And then you can see the answers you get.

Or if you like, give me your question, worded anyway you want to word it, and I'll post the question--on a public forum that can be viewed by non-members, and then you can see the answers. Do you want to take me up on this? Are you willing to put your belief to the test?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancipium ut pudor View Post
A Christian is someone who believes on Jesus Christ and strives to follow his teaching.
You're qualifying your definition of a "Christian" in such a way as to allow you to deny the Christianity of anyone whose practice differs from practice that you approve of. I think this invalidates the remainder of your remarks on this issue.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #610

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Remember folks, if you are a believer and you hate gays:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And for those believers who think that it is ok to be judgemental and degrade people;

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

and

Mathew 7:1-5 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.


Or are these verses that are also over looked in favour of the more 'punishing' verses and threats of damnation?
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