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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:37 PM   #671

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Fact of the matter is that it's abnormal in many areas and no amount of de-stigmatising talk sessions will ever erase that reality. Growing up confessing a tolerance for homosexuality will get you demoted very rapidly amongst your circle of peers in most post-pubertal age sets. This set of attitudes simply mushrooms outwards and becomes the de facto attitudinal stance of all and sundry come adulthood. It takes an exceptional character in such, as Rosi calls them, 'harsh environments' to buck that trend and effect a rapport or a means by which the community at large can accomodate the emergence of homosexuality.
(Can't remember if I replied to this)

And yet Caesar, Socrates and Alexander the Great were supposedly fond of Greek love, not to mention the most manly of all men - the Spartans.

Animals are gay too, who cares? I'd only be disappointed about the lack of grandchildren.

Nature does what it wants, should we listen to the perennial expectations of modern society or enjoy our limited experience of the world before an eternity of darkness?

If the gentle art of bumming was wrong you'd probably have to lock up most of the pervy straight people in the world anyway...
(Scarcely remember writing it)

Earl, all's I was saying here is that it's a fact of life, probably in most of the globe as we speak, and usually in so-called 'underdeveloped' countries that being gay is frowned upon, oftentimes savagely. There's no value judgement whatsoever implied in what I've said; my default position here being perfect neutrality.

Personally, I could care less who sticks it up whom, with what and where - as long as they stay out of my face - as I find the whole male on male physical slobbering thing slightly nauseating. This is just a gut reaction created by aeons of evolution which has as much validity (being an innate impulse) as the physical attraction which no doubt exists between gay folk - actually I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other, on a par with rolling up the windscreen when you see someone picking their nose in traffic, it's moderately offputting, that's all.

Anyway, the progressive liberal agenda then, the 'movement' that is, which I by and large believe in as exercised here in the West, as obviously there's ethical & human rights issues involved in forcibly constraining the expression of innate sexual urges & genuine feelings of love and affection which clearly do exist, this 'movement' simply needs to re-assess it's self-confident onwards and upwards momentum when it seeks to apply it's own standards in the wholly different context of developing countries where traditional mores prevail.

There's a timelag dissonance here that can't be cured merely by pointing the finger & howling 'oh how barbaric' as clearly the (anti-gay) attitude is embedded and to a large extent derived from (a) an often harsh living environment (b) strong 'tribal' traditions and (c) the greater power and authority of religious leaders.

Wealth, secularisation and an atomised & 'individualistic' metropolitan life are probably the strongest factors in promoting more liberal sexual attitudes over here.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #672

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(Scarcely remember writing it)

Earl, all's I was saying here is that it's a fact of life, probably in most of the globe as we speak, and usually in so-called 'underdeveloped' countries that being gay is frowned upon, oftentimes savagely. There's no value judgement whatsoever implied in what I've said; my default position here being perfect neutrality.

Personally, I could care less who sticks it up whom, with what and where - as long as they stay out of my face - as I find the whole male on male physical slobbering thing slightly nauseating. This is just a gut reaction created by aeons of evolution which has as much validity (being an innate impulse) as the physical attraction which no doubt exists between gay folk - actually I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other, on a par with rolling up the windscreen when you see someone picking their nose in traffic, it's moderately offputting, that's all.

Anyway, the progressive liberal agenda then, the 'movement' that is, which I by and large believe in as exercised here in the West, as obviously there's ethical & human rights issues involved in forcibly constraining the expression of innate sexual urges & genuine feelings of love and affection which clearly do exist, this 'movement' simply needs to re-assess it's self-confident onwards and upwards momentum when it seeks to apply it's own standards in the wholly different context of developing countries where traditional mores prevail.

There's a timelag dissonance here that can't be cured merely by pointing the finger & howling 'oh how barbaric' as clearly the (anti-gay) attitude is embedded and to a large extent derived from (a) an often harsh living environment (b) strong 'tribal' traditions and (c) the greater power and authority of religious leaders.

Wealth, secularisation and an atomised & 'individualistic' metropolitan life are probably the strongest factors in promoting more liberal sexual attitudes over here.
The best cure for ignorance is education. Whatever means it takes to educate, that is what we should do.

By the way . . . the backwards barbary argument does seem to be working.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #673
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How is it clear that gays are worse off than liars? Does the Bible say that gays are worse off than liars or is that your own judgement that you are casting onto gays?

I'm pretty sure the Bible says the punishment for sin is the same.
1 john 5:17. Shows not all sin is the same

God commands earthly death for homosexuality homosexuality is worse because it includes two people. You can lie and only condem yourself if you are gay you are helping someone else sin you are leading them astray. Matt 18. 1-7.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #674

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It would behoove you to heed the warnings of the higher powers on this site.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #675
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Did you not see the warning about religion in this discussion?
Then how can I answer the question?

Why don't you give a warning to the person asking a religious question
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #676

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The best cure for ignorance is education. Whatever means it takes to educate, that is what we should do.

By the way . . . the backwards barbary argument does seem to be working.
Yes, it would certainly work in some quarters; there's such a thing after all as 'cultural cringe' whereby earnest Western-orientated progressive liberal folk in these countries try their hardest to emulate our norms, reject almost wholesale the traditional millieu from whence they sprang and basically sputter with embarassment when asked to explain the 'entrenchment' - but most sensitive, thinking types (in positions of power) who are truly attuned to Western liberal advances must also pay attention to local constituencies and domestic populist sentiment.

They will be acutely aware and in most cases proud of their own traditional lineage, it's long-held customs and so on (certainly not all of which can be construed as 'backward') - and won't bear lightly charges of 'barbarism' being applied to them.

The attitude has an in-built logic more perceptible to the native and it's through the offices of the more open-minded sort that change can be best secured; as opposed to blundering into a complex foreign environment all guns blazing and demanding instant realignment with our own value systems - it smacks of a type of patronising, almost neo-colonial assertion.

They want to do things their own way first and foremost and the most promising avenues it would seem in protecting gay rights in this instance would be to understand the culture in it's own terms; establishing links with informed locals and not making unilateral uninformed chauvinistic assertions of right.

The real factors which contribute to the anti-gay attitude in these places should give u cause to reflect what type of 'education' would be more effective would they not? There's just no point in approaching it from a singular plane of understanding as we seem to be doing at present.

Have a look at this video if you haven't seen it already, pretty informative vis-a-vis the type of struggle which lies ahead. Some of the ostracised gays in Uganda are living in unimaginably dire conditions with zero government support or sympathy, in fact, legislation there is becoming increasingly intolerant -


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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #677

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Yes, it would certainly work in some quarters; there's such a thing after all as 'cultural cringe' whereby earnest Western-orientated progressive liberal folk in these countries try their hardest to emulate our norms, reject almost wholesale the traditional millieu from whence they sprang and basically sputter with embarassment when asked to explain the 'entrenchment' - but most sensitive, thinking types (in positions of power) who are truly attuned to Western liberal advances must also pay attention to local constituencies and domestic populist sentiment.

They will be acutely aware and in most cases proud of their own traditional lineage, it's long-held customs and so on (certainly not all of which can be construed as 'backward') - and won't bear lightly charges of 'barbarism' being applied to them.

The attitude has an in-built logic more perceptible to the native and it's through the offices of the more open-minded sort that change can be best secured; as opposed to blundering into a complex foreign environment all guns blazing and demanding instant realignment with our own value systems - it smacks of a type of patronising, almost neo-colonial assertion.

They want to do things their own way first and foremost and the most promising avenues it would seem in protecting gay rights in this instance would be to understand the culture in it's own terms; establishing links with informed locals and not making unilateral uninformed chauvinistic assertions of right.

The real factors which contribute to the anti-gay attitude in these places should give u cause to reflect what type of 'education' would be more effective would they not? There's just no point in approaching it from a singular plane of understanding as we seem to be doing at present.

Have a look at this video if you haven't seen it already, pretty informative vis-a-vis the type of struggle which lies ahead. Some of the ostracised gays in Uganda are living in unimaginably dire conditions with zero government support or sympathy, in fact, legislation there is becoming increasingly intolerant -


uganda - Worlds Worst Place To Be Gay - INTRO - YouTube
Yes, you bring up some great points. That's a good clip too. I wasn't entirely aware of the conditions in Uganda, but that should serve as a potent reminder of where our respective cultures were not too long ago.

It should serve as a potent reminder where these deep reasons for homophobia can lead if society won't stand up collectively and demand change or denounce them.
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