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View Poll Results: Should remunerated sex be legal between consenting adults?
Legal and regulated. Albeit controversial, it is a profession, basically. 49 79.03%
Not criminal, but it shouldn't be condoned and/or regulated by the legal system. 8 12.90%
Illegal, clients only. Pornography and/or striptease is a different thing. 1 1.61%
Illegal, prostitutes and clients. Pornography and/or striptease is a different thing. 1 1.61%
Illegal; professional pornography and/or striptease should be illegal as well. 3 4.84%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Bish View Post
If it was made legal, you could regulate it, ensuring the woman are given health checks and are kept safe.
I have not read the complete thread, sorry if it was already mentioned.

I am not sure, 5,6,7 years ago, there was, I guess, a survey, how many prostitutes request health insurance (my memory must be incorrect, because we have free health care, everyone gets the most treatment he needs, it was maybe the height of the insurance, not the insurance itself)

The number was surprisingly low, because if they would be officialy connected to their work, they would have had to pay taxes, so the majority choosed to work unobserved.

To be exactly, 46,2% full-time and 28,6% half-time sexworkers paid taxes (out of 305 questioned).
http://www.bmfsfj.de/doku/Publikatio.../03030406.html

The estimated number of tax-loss from prostituion was, 2003, 2 Billion €.

Last edited by Ephraim; December 11th, 2012 at 06:48 AM.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:40 AM   #202

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Legalisation and regulation doesn't guarantee the safety and well-being of those involved at all. Just consider how many millions of people are working outside of the law in legal fields of work such as construction.

And as Ephraim points out a lot of women wouldn't want to work within the law, in the same way that many people in all kinds of jobs would rather suffer the dangers and disadvantages than declare their employment.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ephraim View Post

To be exactly, 46,2% full-time and 28,6% half-time sexworkers paid taxes (out of 305 questioned).
II Umsetzung des Prostitutionsgesetzes sowie unmittelbare und mittelbare Auswirkungen - 3 * Auswirkungen des Prostitutionsgesetzes auf andere Rechtsbereiche - 3.4 * Besteuerung von Einnahmen aus der Prostitution - 3.4.6 * Prostituierte und ihr Verstä

The estimated number of tax-loss from prostituion was, 2003, 2 Billion €.
And without legalization, the % of these paying taxes would be 0. Which scenario is better?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 07:15 AM   #204
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Legalisation and regulation have never been magic in any real world and they don't guarantee 100% the safety and well-being of those involved in any activity, but at least regarding paid sex the dire consequences of the lack of any such regulation for the exploitation of sex workers (especially women) and public health couldn't empirically be any more evident.

Corruption is of course a very real risk of such regulation that naturally implies a faulty or even absent regulation, and workers of any kind (sexual or not) will naturally try to avoid any corrupt control, but AFAIK control has as a whole tended to be well accepted in most places it has been seriously attempted, chiefly and simply because we are talking here about extremely vulnerable populations.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 08:35 AM   #205

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Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
Legalisation and regulation doesn't guarantee the safety and well-being of those involved at all. Just consider how many millions of people are working outside of the law in legal fields of work such as construction.

And as Ephraim points out a lot of women wouldn't want to work within the law, in the same way that many people in all kinds of jobs would rather suffer the dangers and disadvantages than declare their employment.
Legalization gives people a choice.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #206

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Originally Posted by Yōḥānān View Post
Legalization gives people a choice.
On paper yes, but not always in practise. For example sex trafficking, or the 'benefit trap' as discussed in another thread. Prostitution is legal in the UK but this doesn't solve these two issues.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The merchant of Venice View Post
And without legalization, the % of these paying taxes would be 0. Which scenario is better?
I have not found anything valid on this, but before the law, p.´s also had to pay taxes (I guess it could be the same argument as on tax fraud by corruption; at first there is income, which has to be taxed to keep it legal, second comes the source).

"Teilweise wussten Befragte nicht, wie sie die steuerlichen Modalitäten regeln sollten oder meinten „Prostitution ist steuerfrei!“. Mitarbeiterinnen von Beratungsstellen berichteten, dass etliche Prostituierte das ProstG mit ihrer Steuerpflichtigkeit gleichsetzten und irrtümlich annahmen, dass sie erst mit Inkrafttreten des Gesetzes Steuern zahlen müssten." (from the link above)

"... they thought erroneously, that they only had to pay taxes with the (new) law coming in effect."

The main reason, according to wiki, for the new legislation, was to make the concrete sex-trade suable.

Before that, it was possible and it happened and got approved before court, that there was no payable service (because prostitution was "sittenwidrig" = unethical, against the good moral standards; in german a general clause in jurisdiction, when not every single case can be formulated).

The money from the punter, even if agreed on terms and values exchanged, was still his own.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:08 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
On paper yes, but not always in practise. For example sex trafficking, or the 'benefit trap' as discussed in another thread. Prostitution is legal in the UK but this doesn't solve these two issues.
On other hand, the absences of legalization always (100%) denies such option.

Plainly, your objection is a Nirvana fallacy, i.e. fallaciously asking for unreasonable unachievable perfection as the only valid alternative for your own option.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:21 AM   #209

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
On other hand, the absences of legalization always (100%) denies such option.

Plainly, your objection is a Nirvana fallacy, i.e. fallaciously asking for unreasonable unachievable perfection as the only valid alternative for your own option.
Well, not really, as I am not dismissing or discounting the value of legalised prostitution. Personally I'm totally in favour of it because it does at least give some people a choice, even if not all.

From your link (and thank you by the way, it looks like an interesting site) - "Exception: Striving for perfection is not the same as the nirvana fallacy."

I was pointing out that it doesn't solve all of the problems and that even in countries where prostitution is legal, there are still a great many problems connected with it.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:22 AM   #210

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
Legalisation and regulation doesn't guarantee the safety and well-being of those involved at all. Just consider how many millions of people are working outside of the law in legal fields of work such as construction.

And as Ephraim points out a lot of women wouldn't want to work within the law, in the same way that many people in all kinds of jobs would rather suffer the dangers and disadvantages than declare their employment.
On the other side, there are maybe many women that would work as a prostitutes, but are afraid of legal actions and consequences.
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