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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:15 AM   #1
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Conscription is a human disgrace!


Even though I was disqualified for the conscription 8 years ago, I still see it as a complete and utter disgrace made by human beings.

Conscription is slavery, maybe not in its literal sense, but it is forced labor to such a degree that it should be placed in the same cathegory as slavery:

First and foremost, conscription demands a certain amount of labor done for the the government for a certain amount of time. If you refuse, you get punished. It has NOTHING in comparison to taxation, as many people say "we pay taxes too" - taxation is money, if you don't earn money, you don't pay taxes! Thats one thing, the other thing about taxation is that you don't have to do certain specific labor for the government or other people to pay your taxes. There are lots of ways of getting money, and as long as you don't get money in the illegal way (theft, fraud etc.) it is very easy for you to pay the tax duties.

Conscription on the other hand demands a certain amount of labor (military service or civil service in some countries if you refuse military service).

It makes no difference that there is a compulsory civil service for those who are deemed fit but refuse (conscientious objectors) as it is still forced labor.

I have never in my entire life, since my early childhood, understood the ethical concept of saying no to taxation but yes to compulsory, forced military or civil service.

I have come across the argument that without compulsory military service, the poor will pay the price by having to serve in the military. I say: No, you don't make a wrong a good thing by extending the wrong to include even more people!

In the western world, most people agree that compulsory military service is a part of "your duties to the country". That it is for the sake of the society.

Well, limiting child births the same way they do in China is for the sake of society too, but that's a "disgraceful intervention in human liberty" - but why on earth isn't compulsory military or civil service not a Disgraceful Intervention in Human Liberty too?!?!?

To me I'd rather have the state to impose the death penalty for a variety of crimes, even though I am against the death penalty, than for ONE moment allow the existence of forced labor.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:59 AM   #2

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Originally Posted by philosopher View Post
Even though I was disqualified for the conscription 8 years ago, I still see it as a complete and utter disgrace made by human beings.

Conscription is slavery, maybe not in its literal sense, but it is forced labor to such a degree that it should be placed in the same cathegory as slavery:

First and foremost, conscription demands a certain amount of labor done for the the government for a certain amount of time. If you refuse, you get punished. It has NOTHING in comparison to taxation, as many people say "we pay taxes too" - taxation is money, if you don't earn money, you don't pay taxes! Thats one thing, the other thing about taxation is that you don't have to do certain specific labor for the government or other people to pay your taxes. There are lots of ways of getting money, and as long as you don't get money in the illegal way (theft, fraud etc.) it is very easy for you to pay the tax duties.

Conscription on the other hand demands a certain amount of labor (military service or civil service in some countries if you refuse military service).

It makes no difference that there is a compulsory civil service for those who are deemed fit but refuse (conscientious objectors) as it is still forced labor.

I have never in my entire life, since my early childhood, understood the ethical concept of saying no to taxation but yes to compulsory, forced military or civil service.

I have come across the argument that without compulsory military service, the poor will pay the price by having to serve in the military. I say: No, you don't make a wrong a good thing by extending the wrong to include even more people!

In the western world, most people agree that compulsory military service is a part of "your duties to the country". That it is for the sake of the society.

Well, limiting child births the same way they do in China is for the sake of society too, but that's a "disgraceful intervention in human liberty" - but why on earth isn't compulsory military or civil service not a Disgraceful Intervention in Human Liberty too?!?!?

To me I'd rather have the state to impose the death penalty for a variety of crimes, even though I am against the death penalty, than for ONE moment allow the existence of forced labor.
I agree with the main thrust of what you are saying. I too am morally opposed to conscription, and am glad that I live in a country where it was abolished many decades ago.

But I will go even further than you in saying that conscription is even worse than forced servitude towards the government. It is tantamount to forcing usually young people to risk their lives fighting and trying to kill those deemed to be enemies by the powers that be, often in practice just some other nation's young people in the same boat! And conscripts are forced to do this regardless of whether they even want to, or indeed whether or not they believe in the justice of the cause. To force people to fight, to force people to kill, to force people to risk their lives, in a cause that may be abhorrent to them, is surely totally immoral! Note that those giving the orders and making the decisions invariably remain in comfort at home.

The military of any nation should be manned entirely by volunteers who know what they are signing up for.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:09 AM   #3

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I don't like politicians using humans as if they were a video game.
Wars need a huge blobs of men to ram into each other, there is no great
skilled training. It is get them, briefly train them to march in unison, then
point them at the enemy. I am no fan of the draft.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:33 AM   #4

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Philosopher, I agree in every point that you make about military conscription. Who wants to go to war? There can be circumstances that require it.

It is justified for the defense of the nation but it is often used as a tool of war.

Public relations figure prominently in swaying the acceptance for war or defense, justified or not.

The US had conscription from the Second World War until the end of the Viet Nam conflict.

The Viet Nam war may have been ended because of protests within the military by draftees.

Now we have an all volunteer army and it has become a career choice for the poor or disadvantaged. They don't protest because it is a job. (privatizing the nation's defense is a bad idea.)

Conscription cuts across class lines and soldiers drafted can have a democratizing effect on the military.

Few want to actually join the military but it can create a break from family life into the world as an individual that finalize maturity.

Disadvantaged kids can be exposed to many more possibilities for earning a living after their service.

I would like to see a choice for national service not only for defense but for peacetime help within the society. It would help kids find their way in the world and grow-up..

Last edited by larkin; November 8th, 2012 at 06:38 AM.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:46 AM   #5
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Sorry - wrong thread.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #6

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The state offers me law, security and welfare, and in return it demands that if someone is threatening any of these, I defend myself, my family and my country. In my opinion this is the most ideal system.

Maybe the country which the topic starter is from will never be threatened by anyone. If that happens, then it will submit to unlawul and humiliating demands.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #7
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The state offers me law, security and welfare, and in return it demands that if someone is threatening any of these, I defend myself, my family and my country. In my opinion this is the most ideal system.

Maybe the country which the topic starter is from will never be threatened by anyone. If that happens, then it will submit to unlawul and humiliating demands.
A country isn't worth defending if not enough volunteers sign up for battle.

I will never defend a country which uses forced labor. A country using forced labor, be it by brute force (conscription/imprisonment) OR economic pressure, in my opinion, should cease to exist!
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:52 AM   #8
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A country isn't worth defending if not enough volunteers sign up for battle.
My thoughts exactly. If its not the will of the people then it shouldn't be the will of the government.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:39 AM   #9

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I will never defend a country which uses forced labor. A country using forced labor, be it by brute force (conscription/imprisonment) OR economic pressure, in my opinion, should cease to exist!
But maybe the alternative for your country is even worse. For your country it was Nazi occupation in 1940. In 1939 Stalin had plans for my country: Finns to be sent to Siberia and the colonization of Finland with native Russians!

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:41 AM   #10

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I think numerous times it has shown by utilizing conscription it can also multiply volunteers into service.
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