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Old March 21st, 2013, 02:13 PM   #181

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Our attitudes towards racism are positively schizophrenic. We permit certain racist attitudes. In America, many black people have a real hatred for whites. They would claim that they have reason to, but two wrongs can't make a right. This hardly gets a mention.

In Britain, many Scots, Irish and Welsh loathe the English, and such hatred is now being reciprocated by some English. (Where's Brunel when you need him? ). This is mostly still acceptable.

The French are regular objects of British derision, the Germans are STILL blamed for two world wars (and losing one world cup, never mind the others they won).

I'm in the peculiar position whereby I tend to dislike the English more than most other races I've met- and I am one! Mostly, because the English have changed, although every now and again I'll meet someone who hasn't.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 06:18 PM   #182

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My best friend Peter, an Englishman from Cheshire, believes that England has lost its identity due to large scale immigration from the Commonwealth and, lately, the Continent. He is 41 and too young to remember the 1950s but it's the imagined England of that era or earlier that he longs for and which is gone. White English identity is important to Peter who briefly flirted with a far Right movement until it sickened him: he considers himself a patriot, not a thug. Peter is working class, hard working and the kindest man I know as he would help anyone in need (whatever their colour) yet he feels betrayed by politicians who have abandoned tradtional English working class values for lofty ideals at the expense of community and country. My friends on the Left call him a racist, yet his views were the norm not so long ago. He says that had the men who fought for Britain in both world wars known what the country would become they would have said "bugger it...why bother" and gone home. He's probably right. Seems identity is a fragile thing. I hope we Liberals haven't let the country down.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 07:41 PM   #183

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRIAN GOWER View Post
My best friend Peter, an Englishman from Cheshire, believes that England has lost its identity due to large scale immigration from the Commonwealth and, lately, the Continent. He is 41 and too young to remember the 1950s but it's the imagined England of that era or earlier that he longs for and which is gone. White English identity is important to Peter who briefly flirted with a far Right movement until it sickened him: he considers himself a patriot, not a thug. Peter is working class, hard working and the kindest man I know as he would help anyone in need (whatever their colour) yet he feels betrayed by politicians who have abandoned tradtional English working class values for lofty ideals at the expense of community and country. My friends on the Left call him a racist, yet his views were the norm not so long ago. He says that had the men who fought for Britain in both world wars known what the country would become they would have said "bugger it...why bother" and gone home. He's probably right. Seems identity is a fragile thing. I hope we Liberals haven't let the country down.
Thoughtfull post Brian and well articulated. I suppose people look back to that "Golden Age" which never really existed, except in the minds of our fathers, and long for a return to a brilliant white which only ever existed on the canvasses of long dead artists. Peter sounds like a salt of the earth individual who feels let down by successive governments regardless of their political hue. I don't however see the connection between "working class values" and anti immigration sentiment. Respecting hard work and aspiration is also a working class mantra regardless of skin colour or origin. Our armed forces have a large percentage of foreign nationals, indeed the Ghurkas are a cherished part of our military culture. The Poles did a sterling job for us in the Second World War along with men of many colours and creeds. In the main immigrants are ambitious, hard working and honest and liberals recognised this and should be lauded and not condemned for our open door policy. Perhaps we should be looking nearer to home for our troubles. Competition keeps us honest and long may it continue, the alternative is decline and decay.

Last edited by Von Ranke; March 21st, 2013 at 07:59 PM.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 04:18 AM   #184

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If only it was only immigration that brought about this change in English society- but it isn't, not by a long chalk.

It is, in my opinion, the worst aspects of Americanism. That's not a dig at our American cousins, merely that ours is a distorted version of their culture, with all of the bad bits (all cultures have these) and few of the good bits. This was intentional and designed to fragment society: divide and conquer.

I think the most noticeable thing is the utter lack of self discipline the modern English have. If they have an aversion or phobia, they now wave it like a flag, rather than trying to hide it: it gives them licence to complain or interfere with someone's life. And they love this: it makes them feel powerful or important. Like the old fool who threw a cross into the local pond, because he's one of these wet blanket atheists and yet most of the village didn't mind the cross.

As a fanatical dog lover, I meet these wimps all the time. Because they're scared (read: they read the Daily Mail and are ignorant of dogs) of dogs, they walk past where I am and panic if I hold my dog (because "If I need to hold him, he must be vicious, right?") and panic if I don't ("There's a man eating dog on the loose!").

They somehow believe that their pathetic neurosis permits them to behave like this. If I had a phobia or neurosis (I don't), I'd do everything to confront it, not use it as an excuse. Besides, being scared of dogs is like being scared of cushions.

I usually tell the more stupid and stroppy ones to f*ck off and get a brain. My dog hasn't eaten anyone for months now. It's me they should be worried about, the dog's a big soft pudding who can't see what all the fuss is about.

Even elderly people appear to have lost all sense of dignity and self discipline. I see them waddling down the street, mouth wide open and thinking that just because they're walking, they have the right to step into the road whenever they want.

Whilst I dislike dishonesty, (pretending that we're all multicultural and happy together), I find it hard to blame this decline on a mere 6 % or so of black or Asian people. This is something the white masses have willingly accepted and almost everything has declined as a result. The culture we've adopted is not their cultures, either.

George Galloway gave a great speech about the 2011 riots that happened in Britain. He thoroughly condemned violence and the stupidity of destroying other working people's property and their own area. But he said, with absolute accuracy, about the looting that this is what happens when you tell people that they are what car they drive, what phone they used, what shoes are on their feet and how much they have in their pocket. He was absolutely right, and Thatcherism had the mantra that "If it's profitable, it's right" and so now society is blighted by pay day loans, fraudulent companies, compensation culture and ingrained "I'll do anything for money".

Nothing good can come of this.

Like Brian's friend, I too decry the loss of the (Northern) England I knew- and it was different then. Sure, it had its faults. People could be small minded about, for example, trying to better oneself, but they always applauded anyone who did, so long as they didn't get uppity. But this was a reflection of their own reality, where the graveyards are full of hard working people who, no matter how hard they worked, remained where they were in society.

But they had a sense of decency and dignity you just don't get now. 30+ years of compensation culture, Thatcherism and consumerism have seen to that.

Self delusion rules. I meet photographers who own all the gear and can't take a decent photo (but they think they can), or who think they can on a damned mobile phone, men who claim to know all about food (but can't cook), computer experts who think RAM and Hard Disk are the same thing, and "Real Ale" experts who don't know their Fuggles from their Goldings and have never sparged in their lives. And what kind of man are you if you haven't ever sparged your wort? Might as well start wearing dresses!

No, this is a jack that's going to be hard to get back into its box. And it was the white English and the debased "values" of South Eastern man, now the homogeneous "culture", which let it out.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 04:41 AM   #185

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Originally Posted by Von Ranke View Post
Thoughtfull post Brian and well articulated. I suppose people look back to that "Golden Age" which never really existed, except in the minds of our fathers, and long for a return to a brilliant white which only ever existed on the canvasses of long dead artists. Peter sounds like a salt of the earth individual who feels let down by successive governments regardless of their political hue. I don't however see the connection between "working class values" and anti immigration sentiment. Respecting hard work and aspiration is also a working class mantra regardless of skin colour or origin. Our armed forces have a large percentage of foreign nationals, indeed the Ghurkas are a cherished part of our military culture. The Poles did a sterling job for us in the Second World War along with men of many colours and creeds. In the main immigrants are ambitious, hard working and honest and liberals recognised this and should be lauded and not condemned for our open door policy. Perhaps we should be looking nearer to home for our troubles. Competition keeps us honest and long may it continue, the alternative is decline and decay.
Thank you Von Ranke. Peter spends a lot of time with ex-military personnel on battlefield tours (I met him on one in Bavaria although organized with Leger) so he would agree with your remarks concerning the contribution of foreign nationals to Britain in both world wars (personally I think the UK would have been sunk without the Empire and Commonwealth, let alone America). His issue is with white English identity which he feels England has surrendered due to large scale immigration. He prefers his own kind - basically people of British stock - living here, thus he is condemned as racist for beliefs which his father and grandfather held to be self evidently true.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 04:52 AM   #186

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
If only it was only immigration that brought about this change in English society- but it isn't, not by a long chalk.

It is, in my opinion, the worst aspects of Americanism. That's not a dig at our American cousins, merely that ours is a distorted version of their culture, with all of the bad bits (all cultures have these) and few of the good bits. This was intentional and designed to fragment society: divide and conquer.

I think the most noticeable thing is the utter lack of self discipline the modern English have. If they have an aversion or phobia, they now wave it like a flag, rather than trying to hide it: it gives them licence to complain or interfere with someone's life. And they love this: it makes them feel powerful or important. Like the old fool who threw a cross into the local pond, because he's one of these wet blanket atheists and yet most of the village didn't mind the cross.

As a fanatical dog lover, I meet these wimps all the time. Because they're scared (read: they read the Daily Mail and are ignorant of dogs) of dogs, they walk past where I am and panic if I hold my dog (because "If I need to hold him, he must be vicious, right?") and panic if I don't ("There's a man eating dog on the loose!").

They somehow believe that their pathetic neurosis permits them to behave like this. If I had a phobia or neurosis (I don't), I'd do everything to confront it, not use it as an excuse. Besides, being scared of dogs is like being scared of cushions.

I usually tell the more stupid and stroppy ones to f*ck off and get a brain. My dog hasn't eaten anyone for months now. It's me they should be worried about, the dog's a big soft pudding who can't see what all the fuss is about.

Even elderly people appear to have lost all sense of dignity and self discipline. I see them waddling down the street, mouth wide open and thinking that just because they're walking, they have the right to step into the road whenever they want.

Whilst I dislike dishonesty, (pretending that we're all multicultural and happy together), I find it hard to blame this decline on a mere 6 % or so of black or Asian people. This is something the white masses have willingly accepted and almost everything has declined as a result. The culture we've adopted is not their cultures, either.

George Galloway gave a great speech about the 2011 riots that happened in Britain. He thoroughly condemned violence and the stupidity of destroying other working people's property and their own area. But he said, with absolute accuracy, about the looting that this is what happens when you tell people that they are what car they drive, what phone they used, what shoes are on their feet and how much they have in their pocket. He was absolutely right, and Thatcherism had the mantra that "If it's profitable, it's right" and so now society is blighted by pay day loans, fraudulent companies, compensation culture and ingrained "I'll do anything for money".

Nothing good can come of this.

Like Brian's friend, I too decry the loss of the (Northern) England I knew- and it was different then. Sure, it had its faults. People could be small minded about, for example, trying to better oneself, but they always applauded anyone who did, so long as they didn't get uppity. But this was a reflection of their own reality, where the graveyards are full of hard working people who, no matter how hard they worked, remained where they were in society.

But they had a sense of decency and dignity you just don't get now. 30+ years of compensation culture, Thatcherism and consumerism have seen to that.

Self delusion rules. I meet photographers who own all the gear and can't take a decent photo (but they think they can), or who think they can on a damned mobile phone, men who claim to know all about food (but can't cook), computer experts who think RAM and Hard Disk are the same thing, and "Real Ale" experts who don't know their Fuggles from their Goldings and have never sparged in their lives. And what kind of man are you if you haven't ever sparged your wort? Might as well start wearing dresses!

No, this is a jack that's going to be hard to get back into its box. And it was the white English and the debased "values" of South Eastern man, now the homogeneous "culture", which let it out.
Brilliant post Black Dog. You are wasted here!
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 04:57 AM   #187

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No I'm not, not while there are people like yourself and Von Ranke around
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 05:03 AM   #188

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No I'm not, not while there are people like yourself and Von Ranke around
God bless you (if He exists!).
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 05:05 AM   #189

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He says that had the men who fought for Britain in both world wars known what the country would become they would have said "bugger it...why bother" and gone home. He's probably right. Seems identity is a fragile thing. I hope we Liberals haven't let the country down.
What about the people from other countries who fought for and alongside British personnel during the wars? I was recently accosted by a Romanian gentleman in his 90s who came here during WW2 and joined the army (although whether he actually saw any combat or not, he didn't say) and as Von Ranke said, the Polish fought hard for Britain (and Poland) too.

You say he is the kindest man you know and that he would help anyone regardless of their skin colour - but does that kindness not extend to living near them and getting to know them? Perhaps he might find himself with more in common with them than he realises.

It wasn't so long ago that we had signs that said "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish". That's not an England I would want to go back to. When I moved into my current house, my landlord told me that he had assured my neighbours that the new tenant wasn't Asian - the area I live in has a high student population, and many of the landlords and tenants are Asian, but my street has quite a few old people and my neighbours are in their 70s. I was chatting to one of them, an elderly lady, and told her that story, and she looked at me as if I was mad. She asked me why on earth it would matter if they were Asian or not (although I don't think she liked my landlord much anyway). That's the kind of England I prefer.

Your friend may feel that he's not being allowed to express his white English identity, and one of the complaints is that immigrants are getting preferential treatment, more benefits than the locals, or getting ahead in the housing queue - I haven't seen any statistics that suggest that they are. And I would say there isn't anything that stops anyone from expressing their identity - I recently took part in a concert held at an Anglican church in an area with a high Asian population, that was frequented by people both black and white.

There are certainly areas of cities where there are racial tensions, there's no denying that but that's always been the case. There are sectarian divisions in places like Glasgow amongst the locals. And I'm fairly sure there are some places along the Welsh border where Englishmen will get a fairly frosty reception. But sometimes, the perception of preferential treatment is just that, a perception.

Take the taxi driving industry for example. In Leeds, it is dominated by Asian drivers. But there's nothing to stop non-Asians from doing it, and I've met more than a few who have, including an ex-stockbroker. So why aren't there more white English taxi drivers? I don't know the answer to that one. It's not a poorly paid job either.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 05:17 AM   #190

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Maybe I am an idealist, in the way I think of everyone equal right to exist. I sometimes don't understand how people can get O.T.T nationalistic to the point that they alienate people, from different cultures. I am always interested in other peoples cultures and probably that's why I love coming on here and just reading posts from all over the world.

As I have posted about a certain part of history in this forum, I found that some people from different parts of the world were interested in the same era and were very knowledgeable about it and I have learned much from them.

Which comes to looking at the history of the country that I was born in [England] I am able to look at the history of that country in a different light, rather than the over the top nationalistic rule Britannia rules the waves stuff.
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