Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum - Perennial Ideas and Debates that cross societal/time boundaries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 25th, 2013, 04:51 AM   #201

Black Dog's Avatar
Idiot of the year 2013
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Damned England
Posts: 9,970
Blog Entries: 2

Quote:
I'll be honest, Black Dog. The more you type the more firmly I get an image of someone wistfully looking at old photographs through specs with a distinctly pinkish hue. You remind me of all the people who bang on about how much better things were under the Communists and how much nicer everything was - primarily because then they were concerned about things like their first loves instead of their second hips.
- Kaficek

Then you have the wrong idea. I don't wear glasses of any colour. I am old enough to remember those days, and first loves had nothing to do with it. Most people have been told that the past Britain was bad, because it was racist, sexist, homophobic and it wasn't tolerant. That is complete nonsense for the most part, because we're still racist (as Arras correctly said), I couldn't give a damn about homophobia (what a stupid word) and "tolerance" means blind acceptance and the sign of a society with no moral values.

The past was far from perfect, but it started from a basic level of decency, especially amongst the now killed off Working Classes. I really shouldn't have to tell you what the moral climate is now, but you reap what you sow.

The Japanese, too, have the right to follow their own culture in their own country. If that includes distrust or dislike of non-Japanese, who are you to tell them they're racist? It's only when they start to use that racism outside Japan that it's a problem. If they're "missing out" on multiculturalism, that's their loss.

Which, incidentally, is what the west does and has been doing at least since WW2: some humans have higher value than others. "Tolerance" and "multiculturalism" one day and Obama sits there on "Terror Tuesdays" deciding which Pakistani or Afghani 16 year olds he wants killed with his drones next.

The Great British Public do nothing, say nothing. Such is the modern "lack of racism". Tolerance means "Duh, I'm too thick and lethargic to have an opinion".

Quote:
One may argue, that all those "humanitarian" interventions, wars on "terror" and "responsibility to protect" are just manifestations of god ole racism: we believe our "values" -economic (free market capitalism) and political system (secular democracy) to be superior to other people (races) and we feel right to impose them on to other "lesser" cultures (who are not mature enough) -no matter the cost (to those people). Just like our forefathers imposed their "superior values" on colonized nations.

You may call it hypocritical racism.
- Arras

Well said. That's exactly what it is.
Black Dog is offline  
Remove Ads
Old March 25th, 2013, 04:52 AM   #202

BRIAN GOWER's Avatar
Glo Caled
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Gwendraeth Valley, Carmarthenshire, Wales.
Posts: 4,468

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaficek View Post
I'll be honest, Black Dog. The more you type the more firmly I get an image of someone wistfully looking at old photographs through specs with a distinctly pinkish hue. You remind me of all the people who bang on about how much better things were under the Communists and how much nicer everything was - primarily because then they were concerned about things like their first loves instead of their second hips.

To avoid the misunderstandings which seem to happen so often on the internet - I'm not saying that 'the good old days' in Britain were like living under a dictatorship. I'm just saying that the debasement of modern culture you bemoan probably has a lot more to do with a nostalgic whitewashing of the past than it has anything to do with the world of today.



Yes it would. People often talk about how racist Japanese society is.
I take it you knew what it was like to grow up in the Britain of the 1950s and 1960s and can compare then with now, that you knew people who were born in the 1880s or earlier, knew their mannerisms, observed their values, kindnesses - and cruelty - and witnessed the huge change to British culture and behaviour in the past fifty years? Not all bad, but much of it, as Black Dog observes, for the worse, especially in recent decades.
BRIAN GOWER is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 05:32 AM   #203
Scholar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 747

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRIAN GOWER View Post
I take it you knew what it was like to grow up in the Britain of the 1950s and 1960s and can compare then with now, that you knew people who were born in the 1880s or earlier, knew their mannerisms, observed their values, kindnesses - and cruelty - and witnessed the huge change to British culture and behaviour in the past fifty years? Not all bad, but much of it, as Black Dog observes, for the worse, especially in recent decades.
I wasn't born in the 1950s, and definitely not in the 1880s, though I do, of course, know people who grew up in the first half of the twentieth century - having parents and grandparents and all. The Nottinghamshire of the forties and fifties described in family stories never sounded like a nice place to me, and the people no better or more virtuous than those of today.

My opinion of Black Dog's claims about how much more hard-working, conscientious and kind people were 'back in the day' derives more from the fact that the same thing has always been said by people in every country in every epoch since time immemorial. People in the sixties talked about civillisation going to the dogs and losing its values, people in the 1930s said everyone was nicer and more respectful in their parents' day, people in the 1880s bewailed the loss of Christian values - and so on back as far as you'd care to go. One of the oldest surviving books from anywhere in the world, The Maxims of Ptah-Hotep, believed to have been written in the Egyptian 5th dynasty about 4,500 years ago, contains a lament that modern society has lost its virtue and that everyone was more polite, respectful and honourable back in the day. This sort of complaint seems to be a fairly consistent part of human nature across time and space.
Kaficek is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #204

BRIAN GOWER's Avatar
Glo Caled
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Gwendraeth Valley, Carmarthenshire, Wales.
Posts: 4,468

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaficek View Post
I wasn't born in the 1950s, and definitely not in the 1880s, though I do, of course, know people who grew up in the first half of the twentieth century - having parents and grandparents and all. The Nottinghamshire of the forties and fifties described in family stories never sounded like a nice place to me, and the people no better or more virtuous than those of today.

My opinion of Black Dog's claims about how much more hard-working, conscientious and kind people were 'back in the day' derives more from the fact that the same thing has always been said by people in every country in every epoch since time immemorial. People in the sixties talked about civillisation going to the dogs and losing its values, people in the 1930s said everyone was nicer and more respectful in their parents' day, people in the 1880s bewailed the loss of Christian values - and so on back as far as you'd care to go. One of the oldest surviving books from anywhere in the world, The Maxims of Ptah-Hotep, believed to have been written in the Egyptian 5th dynasty about 4,500 years ago, contains a lament that modern society has lost its virtue and that everyone was more polite, respectful and honourable back in the day. This sort of complaint seems to be a fairly consistent part of human nature across time and space.
So you wasn't there.
BRIAN GOWER is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 05:39 AM   #205

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,905

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRIAN GOWER View Post
So you wasn't there.
But neither was Black Dog (who I believe is 47 or thereabouts), so that's not really a valid argument to make.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 05:40 AM   #206

BRIAN GOWER's Avatar
Glo Caled
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Gwendraeth Valley, Carmarthenshire, Wales.
Posts: 4,468

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
But neither was Black Dog (who I believe is 47 or thereabouts), so that's not really a valid argument to make.
And you are in your early thirties?
BRIAN GOWER is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 05:59 AM   #207

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,905

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRIAN GOWER View Post
And you are in your early thirties?
Why is my age relevant to the observation that Kaficek is equally competent to comment on the 50s as Black Dog is?
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #208

BRIAN GOWER's Avatar
Glo Caled
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Gwendraeth Valley, Carmarthenshire, Wales.
Posts: 4,468

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Why is my age relevant to the observation that Kaficek is equally competent to comment on the 50s as Black Dog is?
Black Dog was at least a puppy in the 1960s but you I think didn't arrive till somewhat later?
BRIAN GOWER is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #209

Zeno's Avatar
l'esprit de l'escalier
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: ♪♬ ♫♪♩
Posts: 13,691

I grew up in a multicultural society; i never knew it different. When old folks speak of that so-called homogenous society of the past it doesn't appeal to me at all. For starters, people hated the people from the next village or quarter in those days and stereotyped them no less than newcomers, newcomers kids, newcomers' kids' kids or newcomers' kids' kids' kids are today... Because that's where we are today: fourth generation. If you haven't accepted the fact that the world is smaller today than it has ever been, you'll die an old grumpy man, like there are thirteen in a dozen anyway.

And then, what was so great about that lost culture anyway? Most people were uncultivated workers or peasants with the mental scope of a drainpipe. This so-called workers-culture is nothing to glorify... Those people lived in horrible conditions, were exploited from the cradle to the grave, alcoholism and illiteracy were rife. People's world was about as big as their village or quarter. What's so great about that?

Tolerance is about respecting other peoples choices and remaining open to the possiblility that your own choices may not be good choices for other people.
Zeno is offline  
Old March 25th, 2013, 06:26 AM   #210

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,905

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRIAN GOWER View Post
Black Dog was at least a puppy in the 1960s but you I think didn't arrive till somewhat later?
Sorry, when did I say anything about you not being competent to comment on the 1950s? My comment was related to your statement that Kaficek was less competent to comment on the 50s than Black Dog was.

In any case, how many detailed memories of life do you have about being 2 or 3 years old? I doubt enough to make valid comments about social attitudes based on direct observation.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology

Tags
likeing, race, races, racism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do Caucasian races still exist? Earl_of_Rochester Art and Cultural History 32 March 9th, 2011 08:26 AM
Human races beorna General History 86 August 12th, 2010 06:40 AM
The Races of Europe Isoroku295 Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 20 April 3rd, 2010 11:52 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.