Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum - Perennial Ideas and Debates that cross societal/time boundaries


View Poll Results: Should there be separation of church and state?
Yes 50 89.29%
No 2 3.57%
Neither 4 7.14%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 20th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #41
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasta View Post
I'm not sure what it's like in Skyrim but in the US we started reforming our education with national standards after we found that Americans were falling behind the rest of the world in math and science.

Well there is that I suppose. And standards are certainly fine. If their adhered to and or endorsed to a reasonable level for all students given the diversities of your cultures. But those pesky unions (we don't have them in Skyrim) seem more interested in perpetuation their own bureaucracies and existence perks and pensions then servicing their members. Though they do certainly represent a bold front, if not necessarily truthful, in their proclaimed desire to seek the best for their students.



Though in fairness we do have a tenure system of sorts.


It's based on whose best with an ax or sword. Now he get 's the big bucks and girlies.



It's an excellent incentive for others to step up and show real production of effort.

As for separation of church and state? Well probably a good thing in the end. We Nords tend to take religion pretty serious and we don't like the Jarls telling us what to eat or drink or who to date. But their smart enough and I'm smart enough to realize somethings are better suited for the individual to determine and not to be forced on the collective.


And thank you for responding to my comment. It was kind of you to recognize a new guy.
Dragonborn is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 20th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #42

tjadams's Avatar
Epicurean
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: Texas
Posts: 25,369
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
In France, Church and State have been separated for more than 100 years (1905).
Excellent idea from a great nation.
tjadams is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 11:54 AM   #43

Black Dog's Avatar
Idiot of the year 2013
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Damned England
Posts: 8,277
Blog Entries: 2

They have been in many, if not most, countries. The fact that politicians like to try and legitimise their actions and their existence by using God is not the fault of the Church.

If anyone really thinks that totally removing the Church from all aspects of the state will improve politics, they're seriously deluded.

And the Church could and probably would become an outspoken critic of the State, which would more often than not be a good thing.
Black Dog is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 12:58 PM   #44

dagul's Avatar
Rabbit of Wormhole
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: In the bag of ecstatic squirt
Posts: 9,649

^That's right Black Dog, the Church has a government of its own and so with the state. Only that there is the fiction of the law that is created for them not to interfere with each other on the ground that the state governs all of its citizens and entities with juridical personality within its territorial jurisdiction and that includes the these religious denominations which are considered as corporations under the law. On the other hand the church governs all of the people who are its members all together with the properties that it have. Supporting one religion will be not be in keeping with the tenets of democracy on the freedom of religion.

Indeed, politicians can publictly state in the community of their devotion or justification of their actions in the name of the God that they believe into because it is entirely part of the freedom of religion themselves as a possible devotee of any religious sect. Such action is also pursuant to their freedom of expression and speech.

The church being an institution with its own sphere of influence in the society is in fact a critic of the government, and such is in keeping with the healthy administration of government and while there is the concept of the separation of the church and the state, yet, they cannot entirely be limited with exclusivity regarding their extension of their respective sphere of influence over the people that they rule on the ground that members of the church and citizens are the same people that follow the dogma of faith and the laws of the state.

Despite that circumstance, however, there is still the separation of the church and the state in secular governments.

.... good, to see you back, amigo
dagul is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #45

Apachewarlord's Avatar
Chief idiot
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Hippy town U.S.A.!
Posts: 5,623
Blog Entries: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnoozi View Post
I voted yes but I don't understand the last option (neither?).
I nice way of saying "I couldn't care less"
Apachewarlord is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 01:20 PM   #46

Black Dog's Avatar
Idiot of the year 2013
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Damned England
Posts: 8,277
Blog Entries: 2

Thanks, Dagul
Black Dog is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #47

Clodius's Avatar
Theomachos
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,699
Blog Entries: 19

Hello all, I'm coming in on a brief break from Forum exile to share my thoughts on this one!!!

Of course, separation of church and state is ideal. That is "secularism", a word that is nowadays very badly abused by some people who want the rest of the world to think that secularism = aggressive atheism. In a secular society, there is a separation of church and state, but religious freedom - that is the freedom of ALL religions whose tenets do not violate the law - is guaranteed. Folks who want to promote religion can do so using any legal means necessary, and religious folk can practice their strange practices unmolested by the law, unless those strange practices involve, for instance, sacrificing children. History would perhaps suggest that religions cannot be entirely trusted to protect the freedoms of other religions, and so having a de-religified secular government is best for the religions, as well as for the nation. Problems only start when you get a state where one religion, or one denomination of religion, is officially privileged in government. Like we have here.

American posters may know that sometimes (in light-hearted jest, of course) I like to poke gentle fun at them, and particularly their frankly silly ways of spelling certain words(!). However, the truth is, as many of them suspect, that I am just jealous. I'm not jealous because their country is an economic powerhouse or a superpower - I'm jealous because their founding fathers had the good sense to create a beautifully-written Constitution which does not allow ANY single flavo(u)r of religion to win out at the expense of any other, or at the expense of those who have no religion. Without such a constitution, you end up with an anomaly like the British situation, where a fading Church of relevance to only a tiny proportion of the population gets a substantive say in that country's government through the archaic privilege of guaranteed ecclesiastical representation in the House of Lords.
Clodius is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #48

Apachewarlord's Avatar
Chief idiot
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Hippy town U.S.A.!
Posts: 5,623
Blog Entries: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodius View Post
Hello all, I'm coming in on a brief break from Forum exile to share my thoughts on this one!!!

Of course, separation of church and state is ideal. That is "secularism", a word that is nowadays very badly abused by some people who want the rest of the world to think that secularism = aggressive atheism. In a secular society, there is a separation of church and state, but religious freedom - that is the freedom of ALL religions whose tenets do not violate the law - is guaranteed. Folks who want to promote religion can do so using any legal means necessary, and religious folk can practice their strange practices unmolested by the law, unless those strange practices involve, for instance, sacrificing children. History would perhaps suggest that religions cannot be entirely trusted to protect the freedoms of other religions, and so having a de-religified secular government is best for the religions, as well as for the nation. Problems only start when you get a state where one religion, or one denomination of religion, is officially privileged in government. Like we have here.

American posters may know that sometimes (in light-hearted jest, of course) I like to poke gentle fun at them, and particularly their frankly silly ways of spelling certain words(!). However, the truth is, as many of them suspect, that I am just jealous. I'm not jealous because their country is an economic powerhouse or a superpower - I'm jealous because their founding fathers had the good sense to create a beautifully-written Constitution which does not allow ANY single flavo(u)r of religion to win out at the expense of any other, or at the expense of those who have no religion. Without such a constitution, you end up with an anomaly like the British situation, where a fading Church of relevance to only a tiny proportion of the population gets a substantive say in that country's government through the archaic privilege of guaranteed ecclesiastical representation in the House of Lords.
Well I'll be damned, my countries actually done something right
Apachewarlord is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #49

Silkroad's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: USA
Posts: 158

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodius View Post
American posters may know that sometimes (in light-hearted jest, of course) I like to poke gentle fun at them, and particularly their frankly silly ways of spelling certain words(!). However, the truth is, as many of them suspect, that I am just jealous. I'm not jealous because their country is an economic powerhouse or a superpower - I'm jealous because their founding fathers had the good sense to create a beautifully-written Constitution which does not allow ANY single flavo(u)r of religion to win out at the expense of any other, or at the expense of those who have no religion. Without such a constitution, you end up with an anomaly like the British situation, where a fading Church of relevance to only a tiny proportion of the population gets a substantive say in that country's government through the archaic privilege of guaranteed ecclesiastical representation in the House of Lords.

Don’t feel bad. While we here have this so-called secular government and a constitutionally enshrined separation of church and state, the reality is far less ideal. While none of the various xtian churches has an official role in government, a cursory perusal of American newspapers will tell you that the religious right-wing I highly influential in politics. Rarely does a politician speak out against their attempts to put us squarely back into the dark ages with their insistence that creationism is a sciene and evolution a mere theory. Or that women are to be treated as chattel since allowing them autonomy over their own bodies would be akin to blasphemy.

Truly, s secular country would be nice to live in. The US is just pretending to be one at this point.
Silkroad is offline  
Old November 20th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #50

Liberty528's Avatar
Academician
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Louisiana
Posts: 57

I say yes.
Liberty528 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology

Tags
church, separation, state


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Church over State - Massacre at Thessalonica Salah Ancient History 26 January 14th, 2012 02:59 PM
Constantine the Great and Christianity: Church and State Commingled Caracalla Ancient History 2 September 5th, 2011 09:38 AM
Separation of Church and State A7X American History 112 December 18th, 2010 05:42 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.