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Old December 1st, 2012, 11:59 AM   #61
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Excellent thread; thumbs up.

Just please try to be infinitely careful with the term "infinity" and related terms; trust me on this one
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 07:51 AM   #62

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Ultimately, it may come down to understanding what time and space actually are. Because everything we know about the Universe, the farther out we go, is actually knowledge of the past. Moreover, we cannot be sure what changes have occurred since. When we look at Galaxies, that are millions (or billions) of light years from us, we are seeing them only as they were those so many years ago. This awareness of spatial expansion is only an indication of something that has occurred in the past. A relativistic understanding. The Universe may already have started to contract and we would not know it until this information actually reaches us. All phenomena have time aspects and time constraints to them. Nothing we see in this Universe appears in real time as we are able to immediately perceive it. Many of the objects in the sky may no longer exist, but to us they only appear to exist; because the light (or other forms of radiation) emitted by them is still reaching us.
On some distant planet with super advanced observational technology, they could be viewing our sun and its retinue of planets as it looked at the time of the dinosaurs. 65 million light years is nothing compared to 14 billion. Thus, any knowledge of the distant Universe is relative to this vast gulf in time. It may be a misnomer to say the Universe "is expanding" when it actually may be doing quite the opposite in present time.

Last edited by Zarin; December 2nd, 2012 at 08:00 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 08:57 AM   #63
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Ultimately, for all we know the spacetime singularity from which the current observable universe would have come from could well have come in turn from any black hole in anyone's pocket; why not?

IMHO it's already amazing to cosmic proportions that we may be aware at all of anything about these remote events.

In Science any answer predictably produces exponentially more questions; no matter how many orders of cosmic origins might be described, one could always ask if there was anything "before"... or at least if such term may even apply.

This is the kind of questions that will always be there as a last resources for unscientific "models" of existence, either religious or of any other kind.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 10:58 AM   #64
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Existence is a relation to one and another.

The dot on the paper only exists because of its relation to the paper. The line exists only in relation to two dots.

If something doesn't have a relation, either direct or indirect, to another something, it does not exist.

In the beginning there was nothingness which existed in relation to another nothingness.

This created a line of existence in relation to nothingness.

Suddenly we have a 'something' as opposed to 'nothing'.
We have existence. We have the very first element of the universe.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #65

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
The Universe may already have started to contract and we would not know it until this information actually reaches us. All phenomena have time aspects and time constraints to them. Nothing we see in this Universe appears in real time as we are able to immediately perceive it. Many of the objects in the sky may no longer exist, but to us they only appear to exist; because the light (or other forms of radiation) emitted by them is still reaching us.
Real time or unreal time, if we go by Stephen Hawking, we'd all be dead as soon as the universe starts contracting, because the present laws of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics etc. are all contingent on an expanding universe. According to him, only an expanding universe can sustain life as we know it.

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Ultimately, for all we know the spacetime singularity from which the current observable universe would have come from could well have come in turn from any black hole in anyone's pocket; why not?

IMHO it's already amazing to cosmic proportions that we may be aware at all of anything about these remote events.

In Science any answer predictably produces exponentially more questions; no matter how many orders of cosmic origins might be described, one could always ask if there was anything "before"... or at least if such term may even apply.
Well, we're all just messing about with our own curiosities, aren't we? The sun was already around like, what, 200 million years before we came along. Maybe it will still be around another 100 million years after we're all gone. Like it's gonna care.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; December 4th, 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #66

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Real time or unreal time, if we go by Stephen Hawking, we'd all be dead as soon as the universe starts contracting, because the present laws of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics etc. are all contingent on an expanding universe. According to him, only an expanding universe can sustain life as we know it.
Stephen Hawking has already admitted to error in his Black Hole theories. And as brilliant as he is, he readily admits his mistakes. We do not know what the Universe requires to "sustain" life. Life is an ongoing process whose end is beyond our imagining. However, life, so far appears to adapt to whatever conditions seem to be imposed on it. At least on this planet. We won't know how the rest of the Universe actually deals with life until we discover it elsewhere outside our own world.
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Well, we're all just messing about with our own curiosities, aren't we? The sun was already around like, what, 200 million years before we came along. Maybe it will still be around another 100 million years after we're all gone. Like it's gonna care.
Our sun is guesstimated to be at least 4 billion years old already. With at least a few billion more years to go.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #67

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like, what, 200 million years before we came along.
Try about 4 billion years.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM   #68

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K. Was in too much of a hurry to bother with Google that day.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #69

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Stephen Hawking has already admitted to error in his Black Hole theories. And as brilliant as he is, he readily admits his mistakes. We do not know what the Universe requires to "sustain" life. Life is an ongoing process whose end is beyond our imagining. However, life, so far appears to adapt to whatever conditions seem to be imposed on it.

At least on this planet. We won't know how the rest of the Universe actually deals with life until we discover it elsewhere outside our own world.
Life might survive a few degrees of temperature change, an alteration of seasons, a change in the length of days, weeks or months. But the universe reverting from expanding to contracting is just going to be cataclysmic and catastrophic. And the universe isn't going to care one boson about what happens to one tiny planet during that super-massive upheaval.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #70

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Life might survive a few degrees of temperature change, an alteration of seasons, a change in the length of days, weeks or months. But the universe reverting from expanding to contracting is just going to be cataclysmic and catastrophic. And the universe isn't going to care one boson about what happens to one tiny planet during that super-massive upheaval.
The ability of life to adapt and survive still continues to amaze many of the researchers into the mystery of what and why life exists. The temperature range of life's ability to survive and thrive continues to expand. And this is only the life so far discovered on this planet. It is anyone's guess what life has become capable of in the previous 10 billion years before our Solar System emerged and the four billion years since.
The Universe may not care one Higg's Boson, but that does not necessarily occlude the Great Mystery. To deterime the purposes or intentions of the Great Mystery is the ultimate of all human quests.

Last edited by Zarin; December 10th, 2012 at 09:27 AM.
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