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Old December 6th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #81

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Good point, I think. Evil, when you try to pin it down to an individual, proves strangely elusive. It slips through you fingers - what you're left with are heaps of corpses and some impresssively high-minded - or endearingly ordinary individuals, who go on about how they sacrificed themselves - or at least meant no harm.

What you say here (committing atrocities in the name of a bright future of mankind/your nation/progress/science/God etc. - in short with "good intentions") applies to plenty of historical figures, just to mention Robespierre or Felix Dzierzhinsky (inventor of the progressive brand of mass extermination - Hitler just walked in his footsteps) Often quite intriguing socially and full of noble ideals.

In my private opinion there's a personalized and direct source of Evil, who manifests himself throughout human history - never as clearly as in the 20th century, perhaps (though the past ages also provide ample evidence). Unfortunate individuals like the said Adolph, are nothing but pawns and puppets. Human history's way too surreal to be properly understood without metaphysics.
Do you think that Hitler's links through Eckart, Hess and others to the Thule Society opened Hitler up to a powerful evil entity such as the "Lord of the Nations" (as mentioned in Georges Van Vrekhem's "Hitler & His God" 2006). Completely unhistorical of course but an explanation when it is hard to explain the rise of a man from nowhere to a man seemingly everywhere.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #82
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Of course, and maybe in several hundred years time people will feel the same about Hitler and the Nazi's: More positive, some mixed and a lot less of a negative, regardless of photographic evidence. Which is all they had left to hold onto when Valhalla came knocking in the spring of 45'.
That seems extremely unlikely (to say the least) again simply because (BTW au contraire of Temüjin) Herr Hitler most miserably absolutely failed; those hard historical facts are not going to change in the future.
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No source, just an assessed opinion for the overall geo-strategic picture. I didn't say the empires they faced weren't powerful. They just weren't able to unify in a common goal at stopping the Mongols like the alliance system of world war 2 did too stop Hitler and his allies.
Interesting point; guess the same could be said regarding the colonial victims relative to the colonial masters.

It seems evident that the main explanation for the enemies of the III Reich having been able at all to unify in a common goal in spite of their obvious incompatibilities was Herr Hitler himself through a series of colossal strategic blunders.

Last edited by sylla1; December 6th, 2012 at 09:07 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #83

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That seems extremely unlikely (to say the least) again simply because (BTW au contraire of Temüjin) Herr Hitler most miserably absolutely failed; those hard historical facts are not going to change in the future.
We don't know for certain that he won't be rehabilitated in some way. But yes, fail he did in the most spectacular way leaving any future romantic green with envy.

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Interesting point; guess the same could be said regarding the colonial victims relative to the colonial masters.
I suppose so. Has it been discussed here before?

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It seems evident that the main explanation for the enemies of the III Reich having been able at all to unify in a common goal in spite of their obvious incompatibilities was Herr Hitler himself through a series of colossal strategic blunders.
Well, yeah... it's way to obviously easy making that assessment. Then again what little has been revealed from behind closed doors is a leader believing in his own spiteful rhetoric and militaristic hubris.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #84
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We don't know for certain that he won't be rehabilitated in some way. But yes, fail he did in the most spectacular way leaving any future romantic green with envy.

I suppose so. Has it been discussed here before?

Well, yeah... it's way to obviously easy making that assessment. Then again what little has been revealed from behind closed doors is a leader believing in his own spiteful rhetoric and militaristic hubris.
We seem to fundamentally agree here
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #85

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Objectively, I don't know Hitler well enough to say if he's evil, but what resulted from his actions were utterly atrocious.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:36 PM   #86
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Can't imagine in which other way could anyone be considered as "evil" but for the own actions.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #87

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Just for the sake of clarity, do you actually literally mean the religious "The Devil" like in the fallen angel Lucifer aka Mr Satan?
Spot on. Whatever you call him, he's a fact of life.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:15 AM   #88

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Do you think that Hitler's links through Eckart, Hess and others to the Thule Society opened Hitler up to a powerful evil entity such as the "Lord of the Nations" (as mentioned in Georges Van Vrekhem's "Hitler & His God" 2006). Completely unhistorical of course but an explanation when it is hard to explain the rise of a man from nowhere to a man seemingly everywhere.
I don't think it makes sense to speculate about "demonic posession" if one isn't qualified, plus as you say it's ahistorical and it's Historum we're on.
Doubtlessly historical, on the other hand, is the fact of Nazism being rooted in ezoteric movements, occultism and gnosis, as M.Hesemann demonstrated very convincingly in "Hitler's Religion". Without disregarding the standard historic/economic explanations of the rise of Nazism, I do believe the movement could and should be viewed more as a quasi-religious sect than a strictly political movement.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:23 AM   #89
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Frankly, I find some of these posts mind-boggling. It's true that historical judgments are subject to change with the passage of time and new information. But there are limits to this. How in heavens name is it even conceivable that Hitler could ever be generally viewed in a positive light?!?! In this case, it seems like saying "well, things might look different in 500 years" is an abdication of common sense. By this logic, is it possible that someone like Charles Manson might one day be regarded in a favorable light? Someone here suggested that Hitler might be viewed favorably because WWII helped bring down the colonial empires. But isn't that like viewing an infamous rapist favorably if his rapes lead to the passage of strict laws punishing future rapists?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #90
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Spot on. Whatever you call him, he's a fact of life.
Nope, certainly not from absolutely any either historical or scientific standpoint, not any more than any mythological figure ever.

With all due respect, AFAIK in any case such purported (Christian, I guess?) "fact of life" would be regularly seriously discussed at Historum exclusively within the Religious Forum (at best), in the exercise by anyone of us of the freedom of belief beyond any evidence (faith) exclusive of such Forum.

And certainly not as any major contributor for hard historical facts & phenomena, let say like the genocidal activities of Herr Hitler & co. or Uncle Joe & co., definitely not any more than any potential UFO influence.

At least not without any objective relevant hard evidence backing any such claim, of course.
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