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Old December 6th, 2012, 03:40 AM   #1
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From Real Politics to Conscience Politics


What I hate about politics is that it is either party-ideology politics OR it is real politics.

Actually I am disgusted by the way party and real politics are so much the only solution for a human individual to choose between.

What would happen if people followed their own conscience instead of their ideology (party politics) or what is currently possible (real/pragmatic politics)?

What would happen if the entire human kind abolished all sorts of ideology and pragmatism altogether and only followed their conscience?

I know our conscience may differ, but I think this is an illusion. You really don't want to hurt other people. You really do want to help those who can't provide for themselves and you really don't want to just recieve goods and money and other stuff without giving something back to the community of what you are capable of.

With these three "rules" in mind, there may be more of them, I believe our society wether it is Scandinavian, Arab, North American, South-East Asian etc. can be so much better.

Unfortunatly this is in itself idealistic, but principally speaking, what would be the result of such a "conscience based society"?

I fear that the real reason for this not to happen, is either pure evilness or pure real political (evilness in some other form):

1. We (humanity) want people to suffer because it is fun.
2. A conscience based society would mean less suffering, thus less fun for the psychopaths.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #2

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I don't think it will ever happen because people, in general, want to be lead. Politics is just a vehicle by which this happens. JMHO.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 06:57 AM   #3

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Originally Posted by philosopher View Post
What would happen if the entire human kind abolished all sorts of ideology and pragmatism altogether and only followed their conscience?
Great point. We can do that right after we abolish war, famine, poverty, disease, homelessness and rap music.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #4

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What would happen if the entire human kind abolished all sorts of ideology and pragmatism altogether and only followed their conscience?...
There would be complete anarchy and chaos. If everyone were to follow
their conscience, which means each person would rational what they
are doing as legitimate, then mankind just went backwards in evolution.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #5
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Conscience, karma etc the purpose is to prevent man from living selfishly “ego centric”.

Where conscience failed extrinsic condition took over….society is set it up whereby you are rewarded for doing good and punished for doing bad.

Never the less I choose conscience over politics imagine how distorted it would be if men had no conscience….presently politics without conscience is “dirty politics” politics without a heart this type politics I can do without.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 08:02 AM   #6
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What I really want is to not have to work and have unlimited funds to do whatever I want. As to whether or not the rest of society has this as well, I'm ultimately indifferent. But I'd rather be Rich and surrounded by the poor than live in a community of the middle-class. In fact, there's even a primitive instinct from which I can derive pleasure, not from the suffering of others but rather from being better than them. What's the point of being King if you don't have subjects?

I think if we're perfectly honest, this is what we all really want. Some may be willing to deny their desires in pursuit of a hire goal, but you can't expect everyone to...in fact, you probably can't expect most people to embrace such self denial. The reason we have real politics is because we live in the real world, that is to say, it actually works. The world is a harsh and cruel place, it came to be through a billion years of one species killing off another in order to survive and pass on their genes...suffering and death are the currency of our evolution and sticking our head in the sand by denying that reality is a recipe for disaster.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #7
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What I really want is to not have to work and have unlimited funds to do whatever I want. As to whether or not the rest of society has this as well, I'm ultimately indifferent. But I'd rather be Rich and surrounded by the poor than live in a community of the middle-class. In fact, there's even a primitive instinct from which I can derive pleasure, not from the suffering of others but rather from being better than them. What's the point of being King if you don't have subjects?
I can assure you, you will get very, very lonely. That loneliness is the key to being in real hell of earth.

With loneliness I am not talking about not being surrounded by subjects. You will, but they are all paid to please you, they don't do it out of their own free will.

In the end this will not only cause boredom. That's the least thing, the true hell comes when your conscience kicks in and you get to reflect upon your sinful behavior.
Do we really want to live in such a world?

Quote:
I think if we're perfectly honest, this is what we all really want.
No. What we really want is liberty to do what our conscience tells us.
That may eventually mean we have to abolish compulsory labor.
But that doesn't mean we won't be working. It could be accomplished by giving people a relative low income with no regards to their occupation, unless they are earning so much money that they would still get significantly more money from working than not working.

It is called a negative income tax, and some economists are actually proposing that idea. The problem with the Negative Income Tax is that it limits the choices of the politicians on how to govern their subjects. I see that as a strength for the common good, but I perfectly understand why our 179 psychopathic members of parliament reject the idea.

Quote:
Some may be willing to deny their desires in pursuit of a hire goal, but you can't expect everyone to...in fact, you probably can't expect most people to embrace such self denial. The reason we have real politics is because we live in the real world, that is to say, it actually works. The world is a harsh and cruel place, it came to be through a billion years of one species killing off another in order to survive and pass on their genes...suffering and death are the currency of our evolution and sticking our head in the sand by denying that reality is a recipe for disaster.
I am sure I can if I succeed in telling them how the world is a harsh and cruel place, it came to be through a billion years of one species killing off another in order to survive and pass on their genes...suffering and death are the currency of our evolution. Do we really want to live in such a world?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:22 AM   #8
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I can assure you, you will get very, very lonely. That loneliness is the key to being in real hell of earth.

With loneliness I am not talking about not being surrounded by subjects. You will, but they are all paid to please you, they don't do it out of their own free will.

In the end this will not only cause boredom. That's the least thing, the true hell comes when your conscience kicks in and you get to reflect upon your sinful behavior.
Do we really want to live in such a world?
I don't know how long you expect to live, but there are enough people and places in this world that I could probably keep myself entertained until I die. I seriously doubt such a lifestyle would be any worse than my 9-5 upper-middle class white collar profession. You seem to be suggesting that the wealthy don't have any actual friends, which seems kind of absurd, they make friends just like the poor make friends, usually of their class, but not always. Or in other terms, that fact that some of your courtiers will only pretend to like you because they wan't something isn't the best argument against being King.

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No. What we really want is liberty to do what our conscience tells us.
Now you're on to something, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Throughout history the most oppressive force mankind has endured is scarcity. Sure, we want freedom of thought, freedom of assembly, and other political freedoms...but we want more than that, we also want freedom from scarcity. That is, we want to be able to have anything we want at any time. And as long as scarcity exists (and, likely, it always will, at least to some extent), we will never have the true extent of liberty we desire, not even the wealthiest among us, we will have to compete for a finite number of resources. Technology may reduce this burden, but it is unlikely to fully overcome it.

So, yes, when I'm saying I don't want to have to work and I want to be able to easily acquire anything I want, that's what I'm ultimately saying, I want to be truly free...free even from the physical constraints of scarcity. Now, this can never be fully achieved, but if I won the lottery, for instance, I'd be a lot closer to it than I am now, I would be less bound by scarcity and, thus, a more free person.

Quote:
That may eventually mean we have to abolish compulsory labor.
But that doesn't mean we won't be working. It could be accomplished by giving people a relative low income with no regards to their occupation, unless they are earning so much money that they would still get significantly more money from working than not working.
Sounds like a recipe for increasing, not decreasing, scarcity. I'm not saying that it's not a good long term goal. But technology and, especially, robotics will have to advance significantly before such a society would even be sustainable. Labour is a scarce scarce resource which needs to be efficiently distributed if we are to maintain the standards of living we expect in a modern society. Your proposal would make it more scarce and does not address the needs of modern society. Just like a 40 hour work week would not have addressed the needs of 18th century society.

So once you put the finishing touches on your star trek replicator and bring the price down enough so they're as common place as a microwave...we can have a serious discussion about making work optional.

Quote:
It is called a negative income tax, and some economists are actually proposing that idea. The problem with the Negative Income Tax is that it limits the choices of the politicians on how to govern their subjects. I see that as a strength for the common good, but I perfectly understand why our 179 psychopathic members of parliament reject the idea.
Either that or they have considered the impacts of such a proposal on the scarcity of labour and realize it would destroy the economy and everyone's standard of living along with it, eventually bankrupting the state. Your proposal may look good on paper (as long as you don't do the math related to the economic impact)...but that doesn't mean it works. We live in the real world, so we have to address problems realistically.

Quote:
I am sure I can if I succeed in telling them how the world is a harsh and cruel place, it came to be through a billion years of one species killing off another in order to survive and pass on their genes...suffering and death are the currency of our evolution. Do we really want to live in such a world?
It doesn't matter whether we want to live in such a world or not, we DO live in such a world. There are certain physical limitations we can't avoid. I'm sure it would be nice to be capable of unaided flight, but this gravity thing gets in the way. Likewise, I'm sure it would be great if everyone could have whatever they wanted, but this scarcity thing gets in the way. We're more likely to succeed and prosper if we take a realistic view of the situation and consider realistic approaches to our problems than if we just bury our head in the sand and hope gravity and scarcity go away simply because we find them inconvenient.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:31 AM   #9

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But I'd rather be Rich and surrounded by the poor than live in a community of the middle-class. In fact, there's even a primitive instinct from which I can derive pleasure, not from the suffering of others but rather from being better than them. What's the point of being King if you don't have subjects?

I think if we're perfectly honest, this is what we all really want. Some may be willing to deny their desires in pursuit of a hire goal,
Not me. That's not what I really want. What's the point of being King? All that means is you have subjects, and then you've got to try and get them to do all kinds of things they don't want to do. I couldn't be bothered. I've got lots of things I like to do for myself. I don't know if they're "higher goals", but I enjoy them and they don't hurt anybody else, so why take on a lot of subjects that would prevent me from doing those things?

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
There would be complete anarchy and chaos. If everyone were to follow
their conscience, which means each person would rational what they
are doing as legitimate, then mankind just went backwards in evolution.
Excuse me, TJ, but if everybody's rationalizing what they're doing as legitimate, that sounds to me like they're not following their conscience.

I think the problem with politics is the same problem we have in other aspects of life--we're basically egocentric creatures. We see our own problems and have a hard time imagining other people's. We're not basically bad, just limited.

So in politics we pursue our own interests by voting for people who promise us they'll promote our interests.

I definitely think it would be good if we followed our conscience, but at the same time we'd need to broaden our outlook, try to understand other people's situations. We can in good conscience ignore other people's problems if we're not aware that those problems exist.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #10

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Excuse me, TJ, but if everybody's rationalizing what they're doing as legitimate, that sounds to me like they're not following their conscience.
You're giving mankind way too much credit for even having a conscience
to follow. Its like the old saying of "If you knew you could do something
illegal, and not be caught, would you do it?"
Set the parameters just
right, for each person, and see how much conscience a person will listen to.
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