Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum - Perennial Ideas and Debates that cross societal/time boundaries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #21
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: USA
Posts: 4,015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
I think that until politicians decide to start setting an example of integrity, honesty, and accountability, then they're in no position to be crticising anyone.
I have come to the point in life that I find politicians of all persuasions morally repugnant. The biggest criticism I have of the government is that they are spending other people's money, so they don't care if they waste it, and as Naomasa said, they do waste it.
Virgil is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #22

Giordano's Avatar
Academician
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: The Southland, CA
Posts: 55

I'm not preaching that the government is doing good things with tax dollars, but it's just one of those things you can never, ever change.

I'm all for the removal of corruption from the government, who isn't? But to be bitter about taxation and where your money is spent is like being bitter at the sun for waking you up. It's never going to change.
Giordano is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #23

Fox's Avatar
Fox
새옹지마
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Korea
Posts: 2,621

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
I think that until politicians decide to start setting an example of integrity, honesty, and accountability, then they're in no position to be crticising anyone.
Alternatively, until the citizen electors of a nation begin demanding integrity, honesty, and accountability before casting a vote in favor of a representative, they are in no position to be criticizing politicians for a perceived lack of such traits.

If we were talking about North Korea or some such there could be a degree of sympathy, but in a representative government, the legislature generally mirrors the virtue and vice of the populace at large. It is the responsibility of the electorate to act as a check on its elected government.
Fox is online now  
Old December 12th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #24
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: USA
Posts: 4,015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I'm not preaching that the government is doing good things with tax dollars, but it's just one of those things you can never, ever change.

I'm all for the removal of corruption from the government, who isn't? But to be bitter about taxation and where your money is spent is like being bitter at the sun for waking you up. It's never going to change.
I think you will learn to be bitter one day at politicians who want to raise taxes. No amount could ever be enough for them, they could not care one bit about whether the money is wasted, they only laugh at the suckers who put them in office with the power to take your money.
Virgil is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #25

Giordano's Avatar
Academician
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: The Southland, CA
Posts: 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
I think you will learn to be bitter one day at politicians who want to raise taxes. No amount could ever be enough for them, they could not care one bit about whether the money is wasted, they only laugh at the suckers who put them in office with the power to take your money.
No point in being mad over something you can't change.

In this case, taxes.
Giordano is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #26

Sicknero's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Here to Eternity
Posts: 4,382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Alternatively, until the citizen electors of a nation begin demanding integrity, honesty, and accountability before casting a vote in favor of a representative, they are in no position to be criticizing politicians for a perceived lack of such traits.

If we were talking about North Korea or some such there could be a degree of sympathy, but in a representative government, the legislature generally mirrors the virtue and vice of the populace at large. It is the responsibility of the electorate to act as a check on its elected government.
Hello Fox. So a country gets the government deserves?

How do you suggest that a population should demand such then, when it seems to me that there's no choice available that would result in a decent government such as I've described?

I understand your point, I'm just rather cynical about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
No point in being mad over something you can't change.

In this case, taxes.
Despite my cynicism I still think that efforts should be made to change however pointless it might seem. For instance politicians who scam the expenses system so that taxes pay for their second houses, their cars, their girlfriends, their holidays ... personally I can't see a way to tackle this as the people doing the scamming are the people who make the laws of course and even when they get caught they are by and large unaccountable.

What's the answer? Revolution?
Sicknero is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 03:50 AM   #27
Suspended until September 20th, 2014
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 21,118

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
Despite my cynicism I still think that efforts should be made to change however pointless it might seem. For instance politicians who scam the expenses system so that taxes pay for their second houses, their cars, their girlfriends, their holidays ... personally I can't see a way to tackle this as the people doing the scamming are the people who make the laws of course and even when they get caught they are by and large unaccountable.
Quite so. When I see stories like this:
Maria Miller did not declare home rented from major Tory donor - Telegraph

And I wonder how an MP, who is on about 50k a year can afford to rent two properties, paying 3500 a month (which is under market value), I find it hard to sympathise with comments by these politicians that paying tax is a moral issue.

Before anyone says anything about partisan politics, I'm not directing this at any political party. They're all at it.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #28

Aulus Plautius's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Florida
Posts: 1,459

Regarding Starbucks, Google and Apple, if the tax laws of the UK provide they need not pay corporate income tax because of exemptions and what not, then I see nothing morally repugnant that they take advantage of every tax exemption. It is up to the UK to pass laws that would subject these corporations to this tax. There is nothing morally wrong with abiding by the tax laws and taking advantage of the laws as they exist. The morality issue resides with the State enacting those laws.

I would add that though Starbucks, Apple and Google are taking advantage of UK corporate tax law exemptions, these companies do pay UK tax whether in the form of payroll taxes, sales taxes, VAT taxes, property taxes, etc.
Aulus Plautius is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 04:11 AM   #29

Linschoten's Avatar
nonpareil
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wessex
Posts: 9,864
Blog Entries: 11

Quote:
Regarding Starbucks, Google and Apple, if the tax laws of the UK provide they need not pay corporate income tax because of exemptions and what not, then I see nothing morally repugnant that they do not do so. It is up to the UK to pass laws that would subject these corporations to this tax. There is nothing morally wrong with abiding by the tax laws and taking advantage of the laws as they exist. The morally issue resides with the State enacting those laws.
It's not that easy, because these international corporations exploit their status to shift their tax payments to the area of their activities where they pay their least. It lies beyond the power of any individual country to prevent this, complex international agreements are requires, and some countries, moreover, make a great deal of money by enabling corporations to do this - which is why Amazon, for instance, pays tax in Luxembourg rather than the UK, where it does much more of its business.
Linschoten is online now  
Old December 13th, 2012, 04:13 AM   #30

Sicknero's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Here to Eternity
Posts: 4,382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulus Plautius View Post
Regarding Starbucks, Google and Apple, if the tax laws of the UK provide they need not pay corporate income tax because of exemptions and what not, then I see nothing morally repugnant that they take advantage of every tax exemption. It is up to the UK to pass laws that would subject these corporations to this tax. There is nothing morally wrong with abiding by the tax laws and taking advantage of the laws as they exist. The morality issue resides with the State enacting those laws.

I would add that though Starbucks, Apple and Google are taking advantage of UK corporate tax law exemptions, these companies do pay UK tax whether in the form of payroll taxes, sales taxes, VAT taxes, property taxes, etc.
'Legal' doesn't necessarily equal 'right', especially when the cases mentioned involve 'playing the law' to find loopholes.

I agree with your sentiment though - it's the government's responsibilty to fix such loopholes, maybe in these cases through some international cooperation.
Sicknero is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology

Tags
issue, moral, taxation


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Taxation of Americans and A7X American History 75 August 22nd, 2011 07:20 AM
The Kashmir Issue Lord_of_Gauda Asian History 84 June 22nd, 2011 10:20 AM
Taxation... thoughts, history and views. Cicero Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 24 February 7th, 2011 07:35 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.