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Old November 29th, 2016, 03:46 AM   #11

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Apart from the ridiculous 'why?', they seemed to be on half decent terms, give or take the odd bit of anti-christian persection.

Here is the history of the first contacts (mid-16th century) and Japonese embassy to Spain in the early 17th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

I'm afraid this one is in Spanish, for anyone interested:

https://www.centrodeestudiosandaluce...aginasAH26.pdf
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Old November 29th, 2016, 08:48 AM   #12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
Apart from the ridiculous 'why?', they seemed to be on half decent terms, give or take the odd bit of anti-christian persection.

Here is the history of the first contacts (mid-16th century) and Japonese embassy to Spain in the early 17th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

I'm afraid this one is in Spanish, for anyone interested:

https://www.centrodeestudiosandaluce...aginasAH26.pdf
"Reasonable terms" depended very much on which local lord they were dealing with and when. Hasekura Tsunenaga set off from Japan with one Father Soteho, who, upon his return, promptly found himself arrested and executed.

The Japanese lords didn't like the idea of their subjects swearing loyalty to a far off Pope on the other side of the world.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #13
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No chance of an army sailing from Europe and conquering Japan. Didn't the conquistadors conquer the Incas and Aztecs using mostly Native Americans? Maybe if there was a Japanese civil war, and Spain allied to one of the Japanese factions, but even this scenario is problematic. Even if Spain and her Japanese ally won the war, it still does not guarantee that Spain will dominate post-war Japan. Theoretically, Spain could recruit an army in the Phillipines or China and sail it to Japan, but the Spanish fleet in the western Pacific at this time is much much smaller than the Spanish Armada. I can't see it happening.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 01:26 PM   #14
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A what if is only a What if.. without a minimun historical rigor..only to distinguish the filia and phobias...so...it is not possible to argument a hoolingans opinion.
As it never took place...everybody can write what he likes...not based on facts, facts and only facts...
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Old November 29th, 2016, 01:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
No chance of an army sailing from Europe and conquering Japan. Didn't the conquistadors conquer the Incas and Aztecs using mostly Native Americans? Maybe if there was a Japanese civil war, and Spain allied to one of the Japanese factions, but even this scenario is problematic. Even if Spain and her Japanese ally won the war, it still does not guarantee that Spain will dominate post-war Japan. Theoretically, Spain could recruit an army in the Phillipines or China and sail it to Japan, but the Spanish fleet in the western Pacific at this time is much much smaller than the Spanish Armada. I can't see it happening.

The odds of that are zero. I think the conqusitadors did this sort of thing because they had the balls to; not because it would work anywhere near as well in Asia at it would against the Aztecs.

Japan is to xenophobic and homogenous (for lack of better words) to collaborate with the Spanish to the extant Tlaxcala did. Not to mention they are far more immune to smallpox; there army may even be as logistically good or better than the Spanish.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 01:33 PM   #16

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Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
A what if is only a What if.. without a minimun historical rigor..only to distinguish the filia and phobias...so...it is not possible to argument a hoolingans opinion.
As it never took place...everybody can write what he likes...not based on facts, facts and only facts...
And who, pray tell, are you calling a hooligan?

The Spanish couldn't even muster up enough men to decisively defeat Brunei.

Tell me, what, of the facts presented so far in this thread, do you dispute? That the Spanish were unable to ferry 50,000+ men to the other side of the world based on the fact that they couldn't get 30,000 healthy men across the English Channel? Perhaps you could point out any successful invasions on that scale that they did, in fact, carry out during the mid-late 16th century?
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Old November 29th, 2016, 01:37 PM   #17

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Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
Maybe if there was a Japanese civil war
Japan was in the middle of a country-wide civil war that more or less started in 1485 and lasted until 1600. The Christians still didn't manage to win, even though they all largely allied with one another by the end of the period.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 02:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
And who, pray tell, are you calling a hooligan?

The Spanish couldn't even muster up enough men to decisively defeat Brunei.

Tell me, what, of the facts presented so far in this thread, do you dispute? That the Spanish were unable to ferry 50,000+ men to the other side of the world based on the fact that they couldn't get 30,000 healthy men across the English Channel? Perhaps you could point out any successful invasions on that scale that they did, in fact, carry out during the mid-late 16th century?
Spain defeat Brunei...and Soultan had to declared Catholic King´s vassal...never the Catholic King was Brunei soultan vassal.. Brunei was taken by Spaniards on April 16th, 1578. FACTS.. not elucubration.. Can you prove when Brunei took Madrid, Seville, Barcelona, Milano, Naples, Antwerpen, San Agustin, Manila, Guam, Acapulco, Lima, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Tunis, Argel....
Oh wait, Brunei NEVER took the Spanish Empire...and...in 1578... Spain was not fighting Brunei alone... the same 1578, Spaniards have beaten British (English-Scots) Dutch, Danish, Germans, French in Flanders.. and fought Turks and Berberians..and fought Indians.. and fought Chinese...

so...The Spanish couldn't even muster up enough men to decisively defeat Brunei.It is not truth....

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what, of the facts
NOT FACTS... only opinions. A FACT it is the battle of Cagayan.. not your opinion.. BUT FACT... Yes your invincible japanese destroyed by 40 spaniards

Japanese sources: Miura, Shumon (1976). Tōnan Ajia kara mita Nihon. Tokyo: Shōgakkan. p. 109.

Spanish sources: a lot... Japanese named Spaniards Wo-cou

The original record in ARchivo General de las Indias.

As you saY japanese infantry annihilated the Spanish Army... I want EVIDENCES. not opinon but Records, name of the battle, commander in chief, units, places, month, dates.. name of the Spanish Units destroyed etc etc etc... Have you go it ? no... Oh wait.. Japanese Army never defeated Spanish Army... right?

So till 2016... Spain wins Japan...fighting Ronin (former samurai) and ashigarus

Quote:
do you dispute?
Yes, I dispute everything.

Quote:
hey couldn't get 30,000 healthy men across the English Channel?
Yes they could, the season was too late but Santa Cruz just could did it...
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Old November 29th, 2016, 07:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by FailWhale View Post
Let's say Spain during the reign of Phillip II decides to invade Japan in 1570. How big a force would it be able to send, where would the invasion force land. How much success would it have in conquering the whole of Japan.
First of all, why would Spain even want to try to do this ?

It would be a monumental effort so the pay off would have to be handsome....

Just want would Spain have to invest to overpower the local Japanese rulers and just what could they expect back in return ? I would suggest very little.


You REALLY need to develop your alternate histories before posting them.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
The Japanese had been in contact with Europeans for some 30 years by 1570. Portugal, Netherlands and England all had trade posts there. The Japanese military were at a similar level to Europeans ... firearms, mounted warriors, proffesional infantry class... that's if a Spanish army can sail all the way around the world.

Japanese can field armies of up to 120 000 for some, united against nanban you can guess at two or three armies. These aren't Aztecs who've never seen a horse or gun with tens of thousands of rebels to join your cause. The manpower required is far greater than Spain can transport so far.
Only one accurancy data... you wrote Portugal, Netherlands and England... and you omitted Spain...I want to believe by ignorance...

Spaniards arrived to Japan sooner than British or Dutch or any other white man on Earth with the exception of Portuguese...

http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/p...librojapon.pdf

Spaniards arrived to Japan in 1549 to Kagoshima... So your theory in 1570 only "British", "Dutch" and "Portuguese" were in Japan is fully wrong.. In fact, not British and not Dutch.
By the way.. Japanese NEVER stablished difference between Portuguese and Castillian.. because for them, they were the same people...
This is not a What if.. only one fact, An accuracy, a detail that I should inform you.
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