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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:20 PM   #21

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Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
Spain defeat Brunei...and Soultan had to declared Catholic King´s vassal...never the Catholic King was Brunei soultan vassal.. Brunei was taken by Spaniards on April 16th, 1578. FACTS.. not elucubration.. Can you prove when Brunei took Madrid, Seville, Barcelona, Milano, Naples, Antwerpen, San Agustin, Manila, Guam, Acapulco, Lima, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Tunis, Argel....
Oh wait, Brunei NEVER took the Spanish Empire...and...in 1578... Spain was not fighting Brunei alone... the same 1578, Spaniards have beaten British (English-Scots) Dutch, Danish, Germans, French in Flanders.. and fought Turks and Berberians..and fought Indians.. and fought Chinese...
Brunei wasn't aiming to conquer Spain. It was the Spanish who invaded Brunei, not the other war around. And it was the Spanish who retreated.

Tell me, where, outside of continental Europe did Spain meet, and defeat an army as well equipped as it was and defeat it in open battle? Spain couldn't defeat an island off its own coast. Would you like to explain how Spain was going to defeat an island on the other side of the world if it couldn't do that?

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so...The Spanish couldn't even muster up enough men to decisively defeat Brunei.

It is not truth....



NOT FACTS... only opinions. A FACT it is the battle of Cagayan.. not your opinion.. BUT FACT... Yes your invincible japanese destroyed by 40 spaniards
Actually, it's a fact that Spain failed to decisively defeat Brunei. Otherwise Brunei would have been a Spanish possession, and the Spanish "army" wouldn't have had to retreat. Did Spain rule Brunei? Did Spain conquer any of Brunei's territory?

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Japanese sources: Miura, Shumon (1976). Tōnan Ajia kara mita Nihon. Tokyo: Shōgakkan. p. 109.

Spanish sources: a lot... Japanese named Spaniards Wo-cou

The original record in ARchivo General de las Indias.
And what is it that those sources actually say? Since I don't have a copy of them, let's reproduce the text and look at it. The Japanese no doubt called the Spanish a lot of things.

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As you saY japanese infantry annihilated the Spanish Army... I want EVIDENCES. not opinon but Records, name of the battle, commander in chief, units, places, month, dates.. name of the Spanish Units destroyed etc etc etc... Have you go it ? no... Oh wait.. Japanese Army never defeated Spanish Army... right?
Well let's see - the Spanish failed to defeat Brunei. In any of their colonial battles, did Spain, at any point, did the Spanish come up against any enemy equipped with guns, metal armour, cavalry, cannon, superior numbers, modern military tactics and actually win?

QED.

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So till 2016... Spain wins Japan...fighting Ronin (former samurai) and ashigarus
I have no idea what you're talking about.


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Yes, I dispute everything.
Then provide evidence.

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Yes they could, the season was too late but Santa Cruz just could did it...
Santa Cruz was dead, so he wouldn't have able to do anything. But the vaunted Spanish Armada fled with its tail between its legs. Not one Spanish soldier set foot on English soil, and neither would a Spanish field army be able to make their way 10,000 miles on to Japanese soil either.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:22 PM   #22

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And who, pray tell, are you calling a hooligan?
Now, you failed to respond this question, so I'm going to ask you again. Who were you referring as "hooligans"?
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:27 PM   #23

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By the way.. Japanese NEVER stablished difference between Portuguese and Castillian.. because for them, they were the same people...
This is not a What if.. only one fact, An accuracy, a detail that I should inform you.
So what? Why did they care what the difference was?
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:34 PM   #24

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Only one accurancy data... you wrote Portugal, Netherlands and England... and you omitted Spain...I want to believe by ignorance...

Spaniards arrived to Japan sooner than British or Dutch or any other white man on Earth with the exception of Portuguese...

http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/p...librojapon.pdf

Spaniards arrived to Japan in 1549 to Kagoshima... So your theory in 1570 only "British", "Dutch" and "Portuguese" were in Japan is fully wrong.. In fact, not British and not Dutch.
By the way.. Japanese NEVER stablished difference between Portuguese and Castillian.. because for them, they were the same people...
This is not a What if.. only one fact, An accuracy, a detail that I should inform you.
I omitted Spain as they are the subject of this thread and thus their traders and missionaries are likely going to be supportive of a Spanish invasion. It was neither ignorance nor a calculated insult at Spain.
This is SPECULATIVE by the way.

Last edited by Edric Streona; November 29th, 2016 at 11:37 PM.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:39 PM   #25

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First of all, why would Spain even want to try to do this ?

It would be a monumental effort so the pay off would have to be handsome....

Just want would Spain have to invest to overpower the local Japanese rulers and just what could they expect back in return ? I would suggest very little.

You REALLY need to develop your alternate histories before posting them.
Besides, Japan had strong army to contain at that time.

For Spain to do that however, the first thing to do was develop a strong economy in the Philippines for the logistic of preparing large invasion and create a large army out of the indios.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 12:02 AM   #26

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The Cagayan battles were against Japanese pirates, not their military.
Not samurai or ashigaru. Bandits...

40 Spaniards suffered 10-20 casualties. And it was 1 ship.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 12:05 AM   #27

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^I think that was the same with Limahon invasion of Manila. The Chinese who invaded were not officially sent by the Chinese monarch, nevertheless, both of them were armed men and composed of warriors and not mere laborers. They were trained to kill like the typical army.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 12:42 AM   #28

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So even if, as Martin believes, 40 Spaniards can fight and beat 1000 warriors (unproven) this ignores the fact they suffered 50% losses. And ignores the fact that Spain can't get enough troops to Japan.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 02:16 AM   #29

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By the way.. Japanese NEVER stablished difference between Portuguese and Castillian.. because for them, they were the same people...
That difference would be vey difficult to make between 1580 and 1640, since Portugal and Spain had the same king(s), but not previously or after. But even between that period the competition between Manila and Macau seemed evident.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 03:42 AM   #30

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Last edited by YouLoveMeYouKnowIt; November 30th, 2016 at 05:22 AM.
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