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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:04 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
1.000 pirates never threaten Manila.. Cagayán is not in Manila...Oh my God!!!!..Friend Dagul, please, show these men Where´s Cagayan!!!! In fact, it is one of the farest place in Luzon from Manila.. and "nearest" from Japan...in Luzón Island.

First. the battle of Cagayán was the only battle in history opposited Europeans (Spaniards) vs Samurai (Ronin = Masterless Samurai). At least, the only battle we know.

Chinese and Japanese pirates attacked Manila in 1575 (3.000 men) but they were defeated. The Limang-Hong attack to Manila...defended by 150 Peninsulares and I guess Natives from Luzón. (they were in War at the same moment with Brunei and with Moros ankd some tribes). They beat the Chinese and later, they killed Limang-Hong.
Don't nitpick as if it changes the result of the argument. Limahon very much threatened Manila and brought destruction on the city when he invaded with only 1,000 pirates. The 1,000 Japanese pirates at Cagayan also threatened several islands. Manila's entire garrison was only a few hundred, and Juan explicitly mentioned they needed 1,000 men reinforcement to deal with these Japanese pirates. Its obvious that Spanish Philippines cannot withstand a force of 50,000 had it invaded. If Spanish Luzon have trouble dealing with pirates, it has no chance against a serious Chinese or Japanese invasion that is more than ten times that size with better equipment.



Quote:
Second: The Spanish forces took a Japanese pirate ship.. later they took a second Japanese pirate ship (japanese employed 60 arcabussiers and people with armored.. so.. not so "waco")...In fact, 200 japanese stormed the spanish ship and it was very difficult to repel the attack..but finally the Spaniards rejected hand to hand the Japaneses and finally, Spaniards took the Japanese ship (18 POW.. the rest.. prefered to die in action). L
You are not reading other people's posts, and its making this discussion repetitive. The account is almost certainly an exaggeration because the biggest Japanese warship we know at the time was the Atakebune, which only had 80 soldiers and 60 sailors and the most common warship were smaller than even that. Even the Spanish frigates mentioned in that account had 60 soldiers and an unknown amount of sailors, the Spanish galley was even bigger. European galleys in the 16th century carried up to 200 men. The Japanese ship that attacked the Spanish galley was most likely to be smaller.


Quote:
Later, the Spanish Force arrived to Cagayan where were 1.000 japanese (11 Ships adn 18 Champanes). and The Spaniards were 60 men and never in the original source, nobody wrote about chinese.. only Japanese...Spaniards say "Gente valiente" (Courage People.. so they named the Japaneses).

No it isn't. Sixty men cannot man 1 galley and 5 frigates. If you had the slightest clue what the average crew size were in ships of the time you would not be saying this. I'll quote this again:
"
Then the captain, Juan Pablo, ascended the Cagayan River, and found in the opening a fort and eleven Japanese ships. He passed along the upper shore because the mouth of the river is a league in width. The ship Sant Jusepe was entering the river, and it happened by bad fortune that some of our soldiers, who were in a small fragata, called out to the captain, saying to him: “Return, return to Manila! Set the whole fleet to return, because there are a thousand Japanese on the river with a great deal of artillery, and we are few.” Whereupon Captain Luys de Callejo directed his course seaward; and although Juan Pablos fired a piece of artillery he did not and could not enter, and continued o tack back and forth. In the morning he anchored in a bay, where such a tempest overtook them that it broke three cables out of four that he had, and one used for weighing anchor. He sent these six soldiers in a small vessel to see if there was on an islet any water of which they were in great need. The men lost their way, without finding any water; and when they returned where they had left their ship they could not find it they met with some of those Indians who were in the galley with Juan Pablo, from who, it was learned that Juan Pablo had ascended the river two leagues and had fortified himself in a bay; and that with him was the galley, which had begun to leak everywhere, in the engagement with the Japanese. The Indian crew was discharged on account of not having the supplies which were lost on the galley. Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful.

"

No where in the source did it say that the Japanese pirates attacked with all 11 ships; only 18 Champans and it was only the Indian crew who were on Sant Jusepe retelling the story, implying that only Sant Jusepe was attacked and that ship alone had 60 soldiers and even more sailors (not 40 as you incorrectly gave before).


Quote:
In fact, the Spaniards thought to conquer China after to see how easy it was for them to beat Chinese!!!! 150 Peninsulares Vs 3.000 Chinese pirates.
Another trademark distortion of yours. There were several hundred natives in addition to the Spaniards, along with 45 Spaniards and around 200 Iloco that Salcedo brought for reinforcement. The exact number on the Spanish side is not known, but it was probably not significantly smaller than the Sino-Japanese pirates that attacked (certainly more than half of their number).

Borja, Basques in the Philippines, p.35

Limahon apparently only attacked Manila with 1,000 men according to Spanish accounts:
"Then at dawn they lowered the small boats, finally disembarking near the house of the master-of-camp, which they had burned. The chief landed, but it is reported that he did not fight, or leave, that place, where he remained seated in a chair. He divided his soldiers there—numbering, it is said, about one thousand men—into two bodies. Part of them he sent through the principal street of the city, and the others along the beach. The latter took the same route as those who arrived on the first day. Besides these two squadrons, other men were sent along the river-bank."


Even this number didn't all participate in battle. Only some of the three routes of the Chinese army actually engaged in battle, where the Spaniards said they killed over 200, and Limahon was said to have withdrawn after the defeat without bringing the rest of his army for engagement.

Only in the battles that followed did Limahon had roughly 3,000 men, opposing them were 256 Spaniards and 2,500 Indians. This implies numerical parity:
"
The master-of-camp, Juan de Saucedo, and all the Spaniards who had gathered, and were available for the expedition, were summoned. They numbered about two hundred and fifty-six, together with two thousand five hundred friendly Indians; and they set out in fifty-nine native vessels, commanded by Captains Chacon, Chaves, Rribera, and Rramirez. These officers were instructed to consult together in regard to whatever the said master-of-camp should freely and voluntarily communicate to them, as it was he who was conducting the present undertaking.

21. They say that the corsair had, in all, about three thousand men and as many women, whom he had forcibly taken from China and Japan. The best people that he had were natives of those countries.
"

Source: Relation of the Filipinas Islands. Francisco de Sande

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12635/pg12635.html



Note that Qi Jiguang annihilated a pirate force that was as large as Limahon's with just 1,500 men and lost only 4 of his own. Koxinga, with over ten times the force of Limahon, and with superior cannons and armament, would have almost certainly taken Luzon had he carried out his plan. Philippines would have became a second Taiwan.

Last edited by heavenlykaghan; January 11th, 2017 at 09:14 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:04 AM   #352

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Originally Posted by dagul View Post
Now we are into that. First Nazi Germany was not that powerful in the sea against the RN, so it would not showcase in such level, just like Japan, it had a good army but was never a powerful naval power like Spain. So, the inability of Nazi Germany to conquer as colonial power the way Britain or Spain did it was the same ineptness of Japan. That is logic.
Logic, aye? Absolutely. Of course. Strawman logic.

And you know, by that same category of logic, you shud hv been saying that Spain wud hv conquered Nazi Germany, if Spain had invaded Nazi Germany, simply becos Spain was such a great naval-based colonial power. Well, in your eyes & mind, at least.

OTOH, your own style of reasoning wud also hv been self-defeating & turn itself on its head, becos one cud then turn around & say that Spain did not conquer Germany becos it simply had no ability & capability to do so, despite its much vaunted (especially by you) naval power.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:42 PM   #353

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Logic, aye? Absolutely. Of course. Strawman logic.

And you know, by that same category of logic, you shud hv been saying that Spain wud hv conquered Nazi Germany, if Spain had invaded Nazi Germany, simply becos Spain was such a great naval-based colonial power. Well, in your eyes & mind, at least.

OTOH, your own style of reasoning wud also hv been self-defeating & turn itself on its head, becos one cud then turn around & say that Spain did not conquer Germany becos it simply had no ability & capability to do so, despite its much vaunted (especially by you) naval power.
So you mean that being a sea power was not required to conquer territories during the colonial age? You see, during that time, the sea power ruled in as much as during WW2 the nations who rule the air were the victors.

In the West they had an almost equal military power and such was the reason they were able to create their territorial jurisdiction as they are known today. Germany was not existing at that time so there was no way it can be occupied by Spain. There was the Holy Roman Empire and Prussian but no Germany.

Japan was surrounded by water which was very convenient to be attacked by sea powers like Spain at that time. The Spaniards had huge source of man power and need not sail from Spain to attack Japan because they had the Philippines as point of assembly and embarkation of their troops. Japan had no such kind of advantage against Spain.

On the basis of your presented argument, if Spain did not concentrate on colonization of other territories and thought of invading those territories occupied by modern Germany, we do not know what shall be the result. But those areas of modern Germany was already a christian nation and need not be evangelized.

Last edited by dagul; January 11th, 2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:02 PM   #354

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Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
1.000 pirates never threaten Manila.. Cagayán is not in Manila...Oh my God!!!!..Friend Dagul, please, show these men Where´s Cagayan!!!! In fact, it is one of the farest place in Luzon from Manila.. and "nearest" from Japan...in Luzón Island.

First. the battle of Cagayán was the only battle in history opposited Europeans (Spaniards) vs Samurai (Ronin = Masterless Samurai). At least, the only battle we know.

Second: The Spanish forces took a Japanese pirate ship.. later they took a second Japanese pirate ship (japanese employed 60 arcabussiers and people with armored.. so.. not so "waco")...In fact, 200 japanese stormed the spanish ship and it was very difficult to repel the attack..but finally the Spaniards rejected hand to hand the Japaneses and finally, Spaniards took the Japanese ship (18 POW.. the rest.. prefered to die in action). Later, the Spanish Force arrived to Cagayan where were 1.000 japanese (11 Ships adn 18 Champanes). and The Spaniards were 60 men and never in the original source, nobody wrote about chinese.. only Japanese...Spaniards say "Gente valiente" (Courage People.. so they named the Japaneses).

Original source: Cavite, June 25th, 1582.

Where is the source?

Archivo General de Indias, Filipinas, Legajo 29, ramo 3, número 62. Letter from Juan Bautista Roman to Viceroy of Mexico, Cavite, June 25h, 1582.

"Y que allí les iban los japoneses a dar asalto con 18 champanes - que son como esquifes - Y se defendían bien (los españoles), aunque no tenían sino 60 soldados - con la gente de mar - y los enemigos son mil hombres - gente valiente e industriosa"...

(
There the Japanese were going to take the assault with 18 champanes (they have also 11 ships as appeared in the letter) - that they are as skiffs - And they defended well, although they were only 60 soldiers - with the seamen - and the enemies were 1.000 men - courage and industrious People).

Industrious people means...though, hard-work people.

Chinese and Japanese pirates attacked Manila in 1575 (3.000 men) but they were defeated. The Limang-Hong attack to Manila...defended by 150 Peninsulares and I guess Natives from Luzón. (they were in War at the same moment with Brunei and with Moros ankd some tribes). They beat the Chinese and later, they killed Limang-Hong.


In 1575, Salcedo's army marched north to Pangasinan, in pursuit of the pirates, and besieged them for three months. There the Spaniards captured Limahong and his fleets in the river of Pangasinan and executed them.

In fact, the Spaniards thought to conquer China after to see how easy it was for them to beat Chinese!!!! 150 Peninsulares Vs 3.000 Chinese pirates.
Those are very accurate points. Cagayan is in norther Luzon which was the reason those Ronin were comfortable to land rather than in Manila because it was almost in the smack of norther Philippines. As you posted here, these Japanese estimated to be almost 1000 did not board the Spanish vessel at ones.

When Salcedo's Spanish men pursued those Chinese pirates, he was accompanied by indios both from Mexico and Ilocanos from the Philippines. That was an example of Spaniards utilizing well native people of their conquered territory in fighting their enemy like the Chinese. Those Mexicans and Filipinos were baptized as Catholics before they were considered as part of military organization under the command of the Spanish commander serving the cause of the Crown of Spain.

Quote:
600 total Spanish forces (300 troops imported from Mexico and 300 Ilocano Warriors from Bauang plus some unknown amount of members of the village militia led by Don Galo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C...281570-1575.29
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:04 PM   #355

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Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe View Post
Even if the Spanish confirmed the victory it does not mean they confirmed the numbers told by the six Indians. The subject at hand is the number discrepancy in the Spanish account, not the result of the battle itself for that was unknown to the author of the letter when it was written. If the Spanish on the galley did confirm the numbers, please quote them like how I quoted my sources. The Indians did not tell of any attack by separate waves, for they left the galley before the battle even started, so you are essentially saying that the Indians instead of going immediately to another ship, simply stood by for about 6 "waves" of 18 sampans, and were close enough to give an accurate number. So far said Indian narrative is the only source provided. If you have sources confirming the numbers told by the Indians, as well as a description that the sampans did not attack the galley directly but rather simply acted as ways to fetch men until 1000 total pirates were fetched, then please provide the contemporary QUOTE (but from past history, somehow I doubt you'll be providing it. Please pleasantly surprise me).

Plus nowhere in the letter did it say that these people were Ronin. You also haven't addressed the rest of what I said. Look, the story originally came from a group of discharged Indians, who left before the battle was even over, to a group of 6 lost explorers looking for water, to Juan Baptista, who wrote a letter of what he heard from this, and from this letter we in the present day get the story. Every retelling is going to include exaggerations, by this time the story has been handed down thrice already. Combined with the numbers not adding up [1000 soldiers with only 18 rafts?], and that other parts of the letter also have numbers that don't add up, in addition to the incentive for the letter to exaggerate the need for reinforcements, one should get the idea that the numbers should be taken with a truckload of salt.
The specifics of this post of Martin are those that I adopt in response to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
1.000 pirates never threaten Manila.. Cagayán is not in Manila...Oh my God!!!!..Friend Dagul, please, show these men Where´s Cagayan!!!! In fact, it is one of the farest place in Luzon from Manila.. and "nearest" from Japan...in Luzón Island.

First. the battle of Cagayán was the only battle in history opposited Europeans (Spaniards) vs Samurai (Ronin = Masterless Samurai). At least, the only battle we know.

Second: The Spanish forces took a Japanese pirate ship.. later they took a second Japanese pirate ship (japanese employed 60 arcabussiers and people with armored.. so.. not so "waco")...In fact, 200 japanese stormed the spanish ship and it was very difficult to repel the attack..but finally the Spaniards rejected hand to hand the Japaneses and finally, Spaniards took the Japanese ship (18 POW.. the rest.. prefered to die in action). Later, the Spanish Force arrived to Cagayan where were 1.000 japanese (11 Ships adn 18 Champanes). and The Spaniards were 60 men and never in the original source, nobody wrote about chinese.. only Japanese...Spaniards say "Gente valiente" (Courage People.. so they named the Japaneses).

Original source: Cavite, June 25th, 1582.

Where is the source?

Archivo General de Indias, Filipinas, Legajo 29, ramo 3, número 62. Letter from Juan Bautista Roman to Viceroy of Mexico, Cavite, June 25h, 1582.

"Y que allí les iban los japoneses a dar asalto con 18 champanes - que son como esquifes - Y se defendían bien (los españoles), aunque no tenían sino 60 soldados - con la gente de mar - y los enemigos son mil hombres - gente valiente e industriosa"...

(
There the Japanese were going to take the assault with 18 champanes (they have also 11 ships as appeared in the letter) - that they are as skiffs - And they defended well, although they were only 60 soldiers - with the seamen - and the enemies were 1.000 men - courage and industrious People).

Industrious people means...though, hard-work people.

Chinese and Japanese pirates attacked Manila in 1575 (3.000 men) but they were defeated. The Limang-Hong attack to Manila...defended by 150 Peninsulares and I guess Natives from Luzón. (they were in War at the same moment with Brunei and with Moros ankd some tribes). They beat the Chinese and later, they killed Limang-Hong.


In 1575, Salcedo's army marched north to Pangasinan, in pursuit of the pirates, and besieged them for three months. There the Spaniards captured Limahong and his fleets in the river of Pangasinan and executed them.

In fact, the Spaniards thought to conquer China after to see how easy it was for them to beat Chinese!!!! 150 Peninsulares Vs 3.000 Chinese pirates.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:18 PM   #356

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None of what Martin said answered my question to you, dagul. You are just tossing a Red Herring, and block quoting to obscure the issue.

I ask you again: So far said Indian narrative is the only source provided. If you have sources confirming the numbers told by the Indians, as well as a description that the sampans did not attack the galley directly but rather simply acted as ways to fetch men until 1000 total pirates were fetched, then please provide the contemporary QUOTE (but from past history, somehow I doubt you'll be providing it. Please pleasantly surprise me).

You have not pleasantly surprised me, you just regurgitated the same exaggerated source that me and heavenlykaghan debunked earlier:


Quote:
Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe View Post
The source for Cagayan is more an example of historical exaggeration, this is the source: Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful.

Problem is, 1000 Japanese cannot fit on 18 sampan, because that means about 55-56 Japanese per boat. A sampan literally means "3 boards" or "3 planks", because that's pretty much all it takes to make one. So this is more or less what a sampan would look like:

Click the image to open in full size.

The same account also said one of their ships was boarded by 200 men. Which again is doubtful as the biggest type of Japanese warship was the atakebune, consisting of 60 fighting men and 80 oarsmen. The most numerous warships, the sekibune, would have less men. The numbers simply don't add up [Pirates of the Far East, pg 35].

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlykaghan

No it isn't. Sixty men cannot man 1 galley and 5 frigates. If you had the slightest clue what the average crew size were in ships of the time you would not be saying this. I'll quote this again:
"
Then the captain, Juan Pablo, ascended the Cagayan River, and found in the opening a fort and eleven Japanese ships. He passed along the upper shore because the mouth of the river is a league in width. The ship Sant Jusepe was entering the river, and it happened by bad fortune that some of our soldiers, who were in a small fragata, called out to the captain, saying to him: “Return, return to Manila! Set the whole fleet to return, because there are a thousand Japanese on the river with a great deal of artillery, and we are few.” Whereupon Captain Luys de Callejo directed his course seaward; and although Juan Pablos fired a piece of artillery he did not and could not enter, and continued o tack back and forth. In the morning he anchored in a bay, where such a tempest overtook them that it broke three cables out of four that he had, and one used for weighing anchor. He sent these six soldiers in a small vessel to see if there was on an islet any water of which they were in great need. The men lost their way, without finding any water; and when they returned where they had left their ship they could not find it they met with some of those Indians who were in the galley with Juan Pablo, from who, it was learned that Juan Pablo had ascended the river two leagues and had fortified himself in a bay; and that with him was the galley, which had begun to leak everywhere, in the engagement with the Japanese. The Indian crew was discharged on account of not having the supplies which were lost on the galley. Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful.

"

No where in the source did it say that the Japanese pirates attacked with all 11 ships; only 18 Champans and it was only the Indian crew who were on Sant Jusepe retelling the story, implying that only Sant Jusepe was attacked and that ship alone had 60 soldiers and even more sailors (not 40 as you incorrectly gave before).
^The above is enough to debunk the letter. So far, not only did you fail to provide the relevant quote, you provided DEBUNKED quotes that does not address my challenge regarding Juan's letter at all. I asked for a source that confirms the dubious number of the Indian retelling written in the letter by Juan Baptista Roman [in regards to the attack of 18 champans], and in response you pointed me to the same letter by Juan Baptista Roman. A thing cannot prove itself, next!

Now, either stop supporting some dubious statement that your claim has other supporting sources, or start actually showing the alternative supporting source that you claimed to exist. And no, the letter of Juan Roman is not an alternative source to the letter of Juan Roman. That's the same source, not an alternative supporting source.

Last edited by HackneyedScribe; January 11th, 2017 at 05:32 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:25 PM   #357

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First of all the champans cannot attack without the men boarding them. They are not robots. As provided there, it was used by those Ronins to attack and the manner the Spaniards were attack had been explained in that post of Martin. As had been stated, there were two ships involved and not only one. That must show why there should exist an estimated number of Japanese which was around 1000. I don't obscure but I adopt post that had the corresponding source and discussion of them.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:37 PM   #358

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Originally Posted by dagul
First of all the champans cannot attack without the men boarding them. They are not robots.
Where did I or anyone say the champans attacked without men boarding them? I said the Japanese could not possibly board 1000 men on 18 champans, as champans were little more than small rafts. You are tossing a Red Herring by obscuring the issue. I ask you for a third time:

So far said Indian narrative is the only source provided. If you have sources confirming the numbers told by the Indians, as well as a description that the sampans did not attack the galley directly but rather simply acted as ways to fetch men until 1000 total pirates were fetched, then please provide the contemporary QUOTE (but from past history, somehow I doubt you'll be providing it. Please pleasantly surprise me).

Quote:
As provided there, it was used by those Ronins to attack and the manner the Spaniards were attack had been explained in that post of Martin.
First of all nowwhere in the Letter did it describe the pirates as Ronin. It is possible that some pirates may be Ronin, but to describe them all as Ronin in a generalized fashion is unfounded until you provide the proof. I have already mentioned that nowhere in the contemporary source were the pirates described as Ronin. So why do you keep repeating it without providing the proof?

Quote:
As had been stated, there were two ships involved and not only one. That must show why there should exist an estimated number of Japanese which was around 1000. I don't obscure but I adopt post that had the corresponding source and discussion of them.
No, you are simply wrong as you are mixing it with another engagement described in another letter. Both I and heavlykaghan gave the entire description of the battle with 18 champans, and nowhere did it mention that there were 2 Japanese ships in addition to the 18 champans. We gave this multiple times. Martin did not give any quote to support that either, so please start giving QUOTES to prove what you say (instead of Red Herring quotes) or else you will be reported. I've had enough of your sourceless claims.

For the N-th time, this was all that was said about the pirate attack with 18 sampans, and anyone can see 18 sampans were the only water transportation mentioned in this engagement. Where in the quote are two Japanese ships mentioned?:Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful.


Problem is, 1000 Japanese cannot fit on 18 sampan, because that means about 55-56 Japanese per boat. A sampan literally means "3 boards" or "3 planks", because that's pretty much all it takes to make one. So this is more or less what a sampan would look like:

Click the image to open in full size.

The same account also said one of their ships was boarded by 200 men. Which again is doubtful as the biggest type of Japanese warship was the atakebune, consisting of 60 fighting men and 80 oarsmen. The most numerous warships, the sekibune, would have less men. The numbers simply don't add up [Pirates of the Far East, pg 35].

Last edited by HackneyedScribe; January 11th, 2017 at 05:40 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:07 PM   #359

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^No, I stated about the sampans being used to pick other Japanese men, in view of the existence of the junk and series of battles that happened as had been discussed. After the first wave of attack, naturally the sampan will get back those men in the junk and attack again the Spaniards. Among the source is this:

Quote:
The battle of Cagayan or the combats of Cagayan began practically to realize to the first sighting of pirates on the part of the Spanish flotilla, a reed was near the mouth of the river Cagayán and was interweaved in combat with the Spanish Galera, the superiority of fire Of the Spanish ship gave the victory, in the first of many confrontations that would take place along the river Cagayan, among them the attempt of assault by 18 Eastern Sampanes that in an unsuccessful assault to the Spanish forces were decimated by the power Of Hispanic fire, leaving a total of 200 casualties of side of the pirates and causing the death of one of the children of the general of the pirate flotilla. Later the Spanish troops established a base in the banks of the river Cagayán where after an unsuccessful negotiation the fighting persisted, again the expert in the handling of the firearms and the military formation of the Spanish squadron gave the victory against the pirates, where Played an important role the landing troops that the Spaniards carried with them, who resisted the pirate onslaught behind the Spanish pikes and shields. The last and third attacks were resisted by a decimated Spanish contingent, yet the pirates could not break the Spanish defenses and their casualties were already large enough to continue their actions, more than 50% of pirate forces had fallen into the disorderly Attacks on the Spanish defense, leaving them with irrecoverable losses in their marine and land capabilities forcing them to stop their commercial and piracy operations in the Cagayan region.
https://recreacionhistoricachile.wor...la-de-cagayan/

The number that the Japanese had a thousand forces is provided by this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #360

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Originally Posted by dagul
^No, I stated about the sampans being used to pick other Japanese men, in view of the existence of the junk and series of battles that happened as had been discussed. After the first wave of attack, naturally the sampan will get back those men in the junk and attack again the Spaniards. Among the source is this:
What you state isn't what the source state. Nowhere is a junk-type ship mentioned in the engagement with 18 champans. That's just something you keep talking of, without even ONE quote from a contemporary source to back it up. That's just you repeating the same made-up scenario over and over again, not because it's what the source says, but because you believe your own made up story. If a sizable pirate ship was mentioned in the attack of 18 sampans, then why wasn't it mentioned? You'd think if the Indians in Juan's letter thought it important enough to mention 18 raft-type tiny boats, then they would have thought it well to mention an actual sizable ship. But they didn't. It would be akin to talking about the Battle of Midway without mentioning carriers/planes, only frigates. There is so far no evidence of that, there is only you repeating it over and over without proof.

Hypothetically, let us say that TWO sizable Japanese pirate ships were attacking with the 18 sampans in said engagement (even though no other ship besides the 18 sampans were mentioned). Let us say each of these ships were the largest style Japanese warship, the flagship class Atakebune type. And let us say each of the sampans were sizable ones, carrying 10 men. That still gives 2(60+80) + 18(10) = 460 men total, hardly the 1000 men the source claims there to be. Ergo, Juan's letter is either exaggerated by multiple re-tellings, or exaggerated in purpose in order to emphasize the need for additional reinforcements, or exaggerated for purpose of glory-hounding, or all of the above.

Quote:
Among the source is this:

https://recreacionhistoricachile.wor...la-de-cagayan/

The number that the Japanese had a thousand forces is provided by this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
^That's not a contemporary source like I asked, that's a google-translated blog and and a highly dubious wikipedia page with mostly sourceless claims. And even if they are contemporary sources, what you quoted didn't answer my challenge, which was: So far said Indian narrative is the only source provided. If you have sources confirming the numbers told by the Indians, as well as a description that the sampans did not attack the galley directly but rather simply acted as ways to fetch men until 1000 total pirates were fetched, then please provide the contemporary QUOTE (but from past history, somehow I doubt you'll be providing it. Please pleasantly surprise me).

In my last post I told you I will report you if you don't give relevant evidence. Since you insist on tossing Red Herrings, you are reported.

I repeat, Juan Roman's letter only mentioned two major engagements against the Japanese pirates. One was against a ship in which 200 men boarded a Spanish galley before being beaten back, while the other was a separate engagement in which the galley was attacked by 18 sampans with 1000 men. Why do you keep talking as if they were the same engagement? Both engagements have dubious claims. For the engagement in which the Japanese supposedly boarded a Spanish galley with 200 men, fact is the largest type of Japanese warship was their flagship-style atakebune manned by 60 fighting men and 80 oarsmen. Even if the mentioned Japanese pirate ship was large enough to be a Japanese flagship, as unlikely as that is, it still wouldn't have 200 men available for boarding action. The second engagement with 1000 men and 18 sampans is also dubious considering that a sampan is little more than a raft so 18 sampans cannot fit 1000 men.

So far you have only provided quotes that does not answer the challenge addressed for your claims, and these quotes were not contemporary sources like I asked, but rather google-translated blogs and a badly written, mostly unsourced wikipedia page.

Btw, although I speak of the crew size of the atakebune, the most common wokou ship would be the much smaller kenminsen [Fighting ships of the Far East]. I would be highly surprised if the wokou had a ship as large (and not exactly the most seaworthy) as the atakebune in Cagayan:

Kenminsen:
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by HackneyedScribe; January 11th, 2017 at 07:12 PM.
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