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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #361

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Kuki Yoshitaka was known to lead some armored ships of the time, and how did these ships compare with Spanish ships?
Kuki Moritaka, his son, was also a naval leader.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuki_Yoshitaka

Kuki Yoshitaka was known to design a ship that had 180 oarsmen and 800 soldiers:

Click the image to open in full size.

Unfortunately, the whole website is in Chinese, but I think the idea that Spanish had the absolute naval technological advantage in the 17th century is moot.
When I attempted to search for Kuki Yoshitaka and his ships, I had to resort to Chinese searches.
May others try to find a reliable source for this large ship?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:29 PM   #362

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That's the Nihon Maru which is Kuki's flagship. Only one such kind was built so it's hardly representative of a Japanese warship, and I also don't know where you got the crew size from. Such types of ships were generally behind in technology and was more representative of Medieval ship boarding tactics. But by the early 1600ds the Japanese started developing Red Seal ships which were much more technologically on par with other developed states.

I am not speaking in terms of boat vs boat but a ships effectiveness relative to crew size and ship tonnage. If you lose an aircraft carrier, but said carrier managed to take out 100 armed motorboats in the process, you still lose magnitudes more resources than the enemy. Any general would gladly trade 100 motorboats if that meant he could take out even one aircraft carrier, or even to just significantly damage one.

Last edited by HackneyedScribe; January 11th, 2017 at 08:51 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagul View Post
Those are very accurate points. Cagayan is in norther Luzon which was the reason those Ronin were comfortable to land rather than in Manila because it was almost in the smack of norther Philippines. As you posted here, these Japanese estimated to be almost 1000 did not board the Spanish vessel at ones.

When Salcedo's Spanish men pursued those Chinese pirates, he was accompanied by indios both from Mexico and Ilocanos from the Philippines. That was an example of Spaniards utilizing well native people of their conquered territory in fighting their enemy like the Chinese. Those Mexicans and Filipinos were baptized as Catholics before they were considered as part of military organization under the command of the Spanish commander serving the cause of the Crown of Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C...281570-1575.29
Whether Cagayan is close to Manila is irrelevant to my point. The fact is, Limahon not only threatened Manila, but killed the Spanish commander there, burned the city, and almost conquered it with just 1,000 pirates.

Limahon did not have 3,000 men when he invaded as Martin incorrectly claimed, he had only 1,000 men as Francisco de Sande's primary source stated; Martin's claim of 150 Spaniards against 3,000 is just utter nonsense not supported by contemporary accounts.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:52 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by dagul View Post
So you mean that being a sea power was not required to conquer territories during the colonial age? You see, during that time, the sea power ruled in as much as during WW2 the nations who rule the air were the victors.
No that is not what he meant. You need to learn how to read better if you do (including your misreading of Cagayan which we've been repeatedly correcting). What he meant is very simple, and is what I have been challenging you; colonial possessions is not a direct gauge of military power because Nazi Germany was a first tier military power that did not have any overseas colonies. Now, despite what the moderator have been asking, you still haven't provided the evidence that Spanish colonies can mobilize even close to enough force to tackle Japan or even defend their own islands against serious Japanese invasions.

Last edited by heavenlykaghan; January 11th, 2017 at 08:54 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:58 PM   #365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagul View Post
^No, I stated about the sampans being used to pick other Japanese men, in view of the existence of the junk and series of battles that happened as had been discussed. After the first wave of attack, naturally the sampan will get back those men in the junk and attack again the Spaniards. Among the source is this:

https://recreacionhistoricachile.wor...la-de-cagayan/

The number that the Japanese had a thousand forces is provided by this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
You notice that bit in the article that says "citation needed"? In other words, the article does NOT list its sources for that number and is not a credible source. That entire article is full of notes that say citations needed.

Furthermore, it's talking about wokou - pirates, not samurai, not ronin, pirates.

You will need something far, far better than that as a source, so now is a good time to start looking for one if you want to continue this line of argument.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #366

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Lots of them weren't even pirates but merchants and fishermen.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #367
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Lots of them weren't even pirates but merchants and fishermen.
Your sources?.. remember, Citation needed.. save you can prove you fought in Cagayán... and I am sure you don´t be annoyed if I have a lot of doubts you fought in Cagayan... Souces...

Save your pure hate.. you have nothing.. because from Cagayan you can only find SPANISH (Peninsulares and Filipinos) sources...but yes Japanese recognized the defeat... Prove here... what you said...that they were merchants and fisherman...
The rules are the same ones for everybodyi.. also for the Enemies of Spain.. don´t play with differnent cards...

YOUR SOURCES, please... the Offical Record from battle of Cagayán prove what you said... Spaniards fought Fishermen and merchants...
And British in Roker´s Drift only fought children and invalids.

Last edited by martin76; January 12th, 2017 at 12:15 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:25 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
You notice that bit in the article that says "citation needed"? In other words, the article does NOT list its sources for that number and is not a credible source. That entire article is full of notes that say citations needed.

Furthermore, it's talking about wokou - pirates, not samurai, not ronin, pirates.

You will need something far, far better than that as a source, so now is a good time to start looking for one if you want to continue this line of argument.
Dagul has informed very well... not citation needed.. from the moment I wrote the original source in the Spanish Archives... as you didn´fight in Cagayán...if you want to contradict the Spanish Record.. why don´t you write here in this forum the original sources from Japan... or from Spain...
In Cagayán only were Spaniards (peninsulares and Pilipinos) and Japanese (and maybe chinese)... So... waiting your, for sure, very interesting sources can prove:

a) Not battle in Cagayán
b) Not Japanese in Cagayán
c) Not Spanish Victory at all
d)Not spanish outnumbered

Sources, as you say, according to your rules.. sources, sources and nothing more than sources save you fought in Cagayán (with the Japanese, of course) and your testimony would be very appreciated.

I wrote the Original Source and where is the record...witih a license... everybody can read the original Text: Archivo General de Indias...

Waiting your very much appreciated sources...

Regards
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:53 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
Dagul has informed very well... not citation needed.. from the moment I wrote the original source in the Spanish Archives... as you didn´fight in Cagayán...if you want to contradict the Spanish Record.. why don´t you write here in this forum the original sources from Japan... or from Spain...
In Cagayán only were Spaniards (peninsulares and Pilipinos) and Japanese (and maybe chinese)... So... waiting your, for sure, very interesting sources can prove:

a) Not battle in Cagayán
b) Not Japanese in Cagayán
c) Not Spanish Victory at all
d)Not spanish outnumbered

Sources, as you say, according to your rules.. sources, sources and nothing more than sources save you fought in Cagayán (with the Japanese, of course) and your testimony would be very appreciated.

I wrote the Original Source and where is the record...witih a license... everybody can read the original Text: Archivo General de Indias...

Waiting your very much appreciated sources...

Regards
Except we've cited Cagayan from these accounts in verbatim, and it disproves your claims. You said 40 Spaniards were there, the account said there were 60 soldiers alone in addition to sailors and Indian crews and these only pertain to one frigate, not the entire Spanish navy.
The account also mentioned very clearly that only 18 Champans attacked, nowhere did it say that all 11 Japanese ships did nor did it say that the Spanish annihilated the Japanese; they merely survived an attack from these 18 Sampans. So you should heed to your own advice and scrutinize the texts carefully and if you claim otherwise, you should provide the exact passage that proves there were more than 18 Champans that attacked and only 40 men on the Spanish side, as well as how the Spanish destroyed the Japanese navy, and not just surviving in tact.

There is also something called textual critical analysis; we've already showed you how Sampans are just row boats which only fit 8-10 people so the 1,000 people was clearly an exaggeration, referring to the entire force of the 11 Japanese ships even when they haven't participated in the fighting; used for literary device, which is all too common in history for anyone whose read enough about records of military history. This means you should also provide the evidence that Sampans can fit over 50 people for your source that 18 Champans can fit 1,000 people to make sense.


In the end, all these accounts makes it abundantly clear that Spanish Luzon have trouble with merely a couple of thousand pirates; even if they did win a crushing victory, which isn't even clear in the account of Cagayan, the fact is that Luzon was almost conquered by less than 3,000 pirates, a comparable force the size of which a single imperial Chinese force of just 1,500 was able to crush with minimum casualties. The Japanese and Chinese both mobilized up to near 100,000 or over during the Imjin war on just one front. There is no comparison in the total military power Spain and East Asian powers like China and Japan were able to mobilize, especially in Asia; the former is dwarfed completely by literally hundreds of folds.

Last edited by heavenlykaghan; January 12th, 2017 at 01:08 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 06:23 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlykaghan View Post
Except we've cited Cagayan from these accounts in verbatim, and it disproves your claims. You said 40 Spaniards were there, the account said there were 60 soldiers alone in addition to sailors and Indian crews and these only pertain to one frigate, not the entire Spanish navy.
The account also mentioned very clearly that only 18 Champans attacked, nowhere did it say that all 11 Japanese ships did nor did it say that the Spanish annihilated the Japanese; they merely survived an attack from these 18 Sampans. So you should heed to your own advice and scrutinize the texts carefully and if you claim otherwise, you should provide the exact passage that proves there were more than 18 Champans that attacked and only 40 men on the Spanish side, as well as how the Spanish destroyed the Japanese navy, and not just surviving in tact.

There is also something called textual critical analysis; we've already showed you how Sampans are just row boats which only fit 8-10 people so the 1,000 people was clearly an exaggeration, referring to the entire force of the 11 Japanese ships even when they haven't participated in the fighting; used for literary device, which is all too common in history for anyone whose read enough about records of military history. This means you should also provide the evidence that Sampans can fit over 50 people for your source that 18 Champans can fit 1,000 people to make sense.


In the end, all these accounts makes it abundantly clear that Spanish Luzon have trouble with merely a couple of thousand pirates; even if they did win a crushing victory, which isn't even clear in the account of Cagayan, the fact is that Luzon was almost conquered by less than 3,000 pirates, a comparable force the size of which a single imperial Chinese force of just 1,500 was able to crush with minimum casualties. The Japanese and Chinese both mobilized up to near 100,000 or over during the Imjin war on just one front. There is no comparison in the total military power Spain and East Asian powers like China and Japan were able to mobilize, especially in Asia; the former is dwarfed completely by literally hundreds of folds.

40? Who are talking about 40?

The only sources are two records.. two Spanish records... the most important, as I wrote year it is in Archivo de Indias, AGI, Filipinas, legajo 29, ramo 3, número 62. Carta de Juan Bautista Roman al Virrey de México de 25 de junio de 1582.

The letter says:

"(...) Ayer tarde - día de San Juan - llegaron seis soldados que habían ido con el capitán Juan Pablo de Carrión contra los japoneses que están poblados en el río de Cagayán

(... Yesterday evening - Saint John´s Day - arrived six soldiers had been with captain Juan Pablo de Carrión against Japanese were camped in Cagayán River.

Y dicen que Juan Pablo salió con su armada --que era el navío San Yuseppe, y la Galera Capitana y 5 fragatas-- del pueblo de Bigan --que es en Ilocos-- habrá 35 días, la vuelta de Cagayán.

And they say Juan Pablo left with his navy - The ship Saint Giuseppe and the main Galley and 5 frigates - from village Bigan - settled in Ilocos, 35 days ago, toward Cagayán.

Y --en saliendo-- topó un navío de corsarios chinos y lo rindió fácilmente. Y metió dentro de él 16 soldados y siguió su viaje..

And - just starting - he found a Chinese pirate ship and he easily surrendered and he sent 16 soldiers to that ship and he continued his travel.

Y en doblando el cabo del Borgador --que es cerca de Cagayán--, una mañana con tiempo bonancible, al amanecer, se hallaron junto a un navío japonés

And rounding the Cape Borgador - near Cagayán - one morning with a very good weather, at dawn, they were near a Japanese ship.

Al cual acometió Juan Pablo con la Galera Capitana y le arrojó con la artillería el árbol mayor y mataron alguna gente.

To which ship, Juan Pablo attacked with the Galley and cut with his artillery off the mainmast and they killed some people.

Los japoneses echaron un garfio a la galera y se arrojaron 200 hombres en ella con picas y coracinas, y quedaron 60 arcabuceros tirando a nuestra gente.

The Japanese threw a hook at the galley and 200 men were thrown at it with pikes and coracinas (a kind of armour), and there were 60 arquebusiers shotting our people.

Y --en fin-- les Enemigos rindieron la galera hasta el palo mayor. Y allí nuestra gente lo hizo tan bien --en la necesidad extrema-- que hicieron retirar a los japoneses hasta su navío.

And - finally - the Enemies surrendered the galley until the mainmast. And there our people did it so well - in the extreme necessity - that they made the Japanese withdraw to their ship.

Los cuales quitaron el garfio y dieron la vela del trinquete que les había quedado.

They removed the hook and trying to escape with the foresail, the only mast that had remained.

En este tiempo los barloó el navío San Yusepe, y con la artillería y fortaleza del navío vencieron a los japoneses.
Los cuales pelearon valientemente hasta quedar en 18, que --de cansados-- se rindieron.

At this time they were barked by the ship Saint Giuseppe, and with the artillery and fortress of the ship they overcame the Japanese.
They fought bravely until they were 18, who - tired - surrendered.

(...)

Con esto, el Capitán Juan Pablo entró en el río Cagayán arriba y halló en la entrada un fuerte y 11 navíos japoneses.

After this one, Captain Juan Pablo entered Cagayán River up and he found in the mouth a fort and 11 Japanese Ships.

El navío San Yusepe iba a entrar en el río y quiso la mala fortuna que unos soldados nuestros --que iban en una fragatilla-- dieran voces al Capitán diciéndole:

Ship Saint Giuseppe was ready to go into the river when the bad luck wanted that some our soldiers - that sailed in one Fragatilla - shout the captain saying:

Vuelva, vuelva a Manila, que toda la armada se vuelve! Porque hay mil japoneses en el río y mucha artillería, y somos pocos

Back, Back to Manila, all the Navy back! Because they are 1.000 japanese in the river armed with much artillery, and we are very small number.


(...)

Y toparon con unos Indios --de los que iban en la galera de Juan Pablo--, de los cuales supo que Juan Pablo había subido por el río dos leguas y fortificádose en un estero con la galera, que se había abierto toda cuando embistió con el japonés.

(and they found several indians - that they went into the Juan Pablo´s Galley - whom said to him that Juan Pablo had went the river up two leguas (around 14 kms) and he had fortified in a estuary with his galley, that it was open when he attacked the Japanese.

Y que allí les iban los japoneses a dar asaltos con 18 champanes --que son como esquifes. Y se defendían bien, aunque no tenían sino 60 soldados --con la gente de mar-- y los Enemigos son mil hombres, gente valiente e industriosa.And that the Japanese were going to attack them with 18 champanes - they are like skiffs. And they defended well, although they had only 60 soldiers - with the seamen - and the Enemies are a thousand men, brave and industrious people.

This was the battle of Cagayán.

Every body can read the letter typing "Españoles y Japoneses en el norte de la isla de Luzón" (Spaniards and Japanese in the Northern Luzon".)

This is the record. And nobody have written here a record different.

Quote:
hey merely survived an attack from these 18 Sampans.
They surviverd an attack sustained by 11 ships. If they were attacked by 18 Sampans in that action, day before, the Galley had attacked the Japanese in the River and day before, they had taken a Japanese ship.

And "merely survived" was exactly what British did in ROKER´S DRIFT.. only "survived"... why so they are the "heroes" and not the Spaniards... It was a Roker´s Drift a "Zulu victory"... The Same Cagayán.. Roker´s Drift and Cagayán were the same.. but in Cagayan japanese had artillery, arquebus and armoured... and Wako haven´t armoured plates.. that the reason because people say they were Ronins.
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