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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:43 PM   #41

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I am not sure that Brunei was that that important in the spice tradeÖ donít have that idea at allÖ

I am not also familiar with the Brunei-Spanish War, but I have the idea that some of what are today islands that belong to the Philippines were part of Brunei, directly or as Vassals.

The main spice sources in the Insulindia seem to have been the Maluku Islands, but I am not sure if they ever were under Brunei suzerainty, donít think so. But again the Maluku Islands were pretty disputed between Portuguese and Spanish, from the Magellan voyage, at least until the Treaty of Zaragoza (1529), long before the existence of the Netherlands, that only arrived there 70 years later.

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The Pacific route for Treasure Fleets from the west coasts of America were safer from pirates and buccaneers, but the longer voyage took its toll. Those Spanish outposts were important to repair and replenish the Fleets for their next journey home. In retrospect, the Pacific route was probably better in theory than in practice, and Spain began to lose its hold there pretty early.
The piracy in Insulindia was also pretty intense, although I donít think that we have data to say that was more or less intense that in the North Atlantic. Besides it was pretty rare to do the voyage from Manila to west to Spain. Basically the connection of Manila to Spain was via Mexico (in the XVI century). As it was natural, other countries didnít like the Tordesilhas Treaty, but the merchants in Portugal and Spain took it pretty seriously. Even when they had the same kings.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:45 PM   #42

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Japanese firearms were as effective as modern European ones. They also used them in en masse. While it is true that most Samurai preferred the bow, sword and spear as these were noble and traditional weapons they loved the arqubus and their ashigaru footbtroops had them in large numbers.

I've often considered the pre-gunpowder Japanese armies as inferior to European pre gunpowder ones. But with firearms negating European armour advantages I think the Japanese of the late 16th centuries would have been fairly matched against the better European armies.

But the point is not that they were better than Spanish troops it's that Spain doesn't have the ability to send a sufficient number of troops to Japan. The Japanese lords could mobilize armies of 50 000, 150 000 were earmarked for the invasions of Korea. Spain would need at least 50 000 men to arrive in Japan. In my opinion.

Being that the 50 000 they had waiting for the armada in 1588 lost about 10 000 men (soldiers not sailors) waiting safe and sound in Europe or on the short journey to England how many would she need to send to Japan to ensure she has enough troops alive by the time they make it? 80 000? 150 000? If Spain could mobilise that number of troops who would be left to defend Spain? How many ships would they need? How many supply ships to go with them? To even begin this journey and build and supply the fleet, requires, I'd guess more than Spain had. She lacked the manpower, wood, food but even if she miraculously can do it she then has to sail this fleet of what 1000-3000 galleys from Spain all they down Africa, back up around Africa, passed India the phillpenes and China... a journey of some 12 months?

Even if by another miracle no ships are wrecked or sunk they will be scattered and strung out and not arriving at the same time.

No European country in this time has the ability to reach Japan in this period in anything but small numbers.
By 1850 Britain and France have the naval/military strength and tech superiority to take parts of Japan. Not the mainland but some of the smaller islands.

Only Russia and the USA have ever had the chance in 1945 to do it.
The mongol invasion had it not drowned would have been nasty and they could have won if they had not washed up on the beach. But they are Asians and the fact that they met with disaster in such a small distance shows the extreme unlikelygood of Spain getting an invasion fkeet there.

Last edited by Edric Streona; November 30th, 2016 at 01:50 PM.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:58 PM   #43

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Edric,

As far as I know the firearms were introduced by the Portuguese in Japan.

In the XVI century galleys didn’t travel in the Atlantic Ocean to reach the Indian Ocean. Especially not the Spanish ones. Due to nautical reasons and political ones. The galleys that the Portuguese had in the Indian Ocean were mounted or constructed there.

The Spanish Armada was not entirely “Spanish”. It was also Portuguese and Neapolitan.

Any colonial conquest in Asia and Africa made by Europeans was always made by small European armies with vast number of “proxies”.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 02:23 PM   #44

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Tuious, obviously you are better informed than I am on Southwest Pacific in the 16th and 17th centuries, and I say that with sincerity.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 02:29 PM   #45

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Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
Japanese firearms were as effective as modern European ones. They also used them in en masse. While it is true that most Samurai preferred the bow, sword and spear as these were noble and traditional weapons they loved the arqubus and their ashigaru footbtroops had them in large numbers.

I've often considered the pre-gunpowder Japanese armies as inferior to European pre gunpowder ones. But with firearms negating European armour advantages I think the Japanese of the late 16th centuries would have been fairly matched against the better European armies.

But the point is not that they were better than Spanish troops it's that Spain doesn't have the ability to send a sufficient number of troops to Japan. The Japanese lords could mobilize armies of 50 000, 150 000 were earmarked for the invasions of Korea. Spain would need at least 50 000 men to arrive in Japan. In my opinion.

Being that the 50 000 they had waiting for the armada in 1588 lost about 10 000 men (soldiers not sailors) waiting safe and sound in Europe or on the short journey to England how many would she need to send to Japan to ensure she has enough troops alive by the time they make it? 80 000? 150 000? If Spain could mobilise that number of troops who would be left to defend Spain? How many ships would they need? How many supply ships to go with them? To even begin this journey and build and supply the fleet, requires, I'd guess more than Spain had. She lacked the manpower, wood, food but even if she miraculously can do it she then has to sail this fleet of what 1000-3000 galleys from Spain all they down Africa, back up around Africa, passed India the phillpenes and China... a journey of some 12 months?

Even if by another miracle no ships are wrecked or sunk they will be scattered and strung out and not arriving at the same time.

No European country in this time has the ability to reach Japan in this period in anything but small numbers.
By 1850 Britain and France have the naval/military strength and tech superiority to take parts of Japan. Not the mainland but some of the smaller islands.

Only Russia and the USA have ever had the chance in 1945 to do it.
The mongol invasion had it not drowned would have been nasty and they could have won if they had not washed up on the beach. But they are Asians and the fact that they met with disaster in such a small distance shows the extreme unlikelygood of Spain getting an invasion fkeet there.
Japanese firearms were certainly superior in at least one regard - they used standardised bores, which meant bullets were interchangeable. European rifles had to have bullets cast for each individual gun. The Spanish Armada suffered this same problem with their cannon, IIRC, which was why Spanish naval tactics usually involved firing one broadside and then closing to grapple.

Plus, the Japanese would have had cavalry. Unless the Spanish also managed to transport or locally acquire thousands of horses, they would have been far less mobile than the Japanese. Not a problem when you're dealing with Incans or Aztecs who don't themselves use cavalry. Not so good against a technologically matched field army.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 03:39 PM   #46

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Yes. So unless the Spanish can open a portal and march their army through it 1570s is just to early for them to send an army big enough.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #47
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Even if they can open a portal in the 1570s, Japan under Hideyoshi could muster more than twice the soldiers as the entire Spanish Empire and Japan, with a population near 20 million had more people than the entire Spanish Empire as well, and more than twice that of Spain itself.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 08:06 PM   #48

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
And who, pray tell, are you calling a hooligan?

The Spanish couldn't even muster up enough men to decisively defeat Brunei.
...nor to completely subjugate the Philippines.

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The Spanish–Moro Conflict was a series of wars lasting over several centuries from the beginning of Spanish colonization of the Philippines, to the Spanish–American War when Spain finally began to subjugate Moroland after centuries of failing to do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis...3Moro_conflict
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Old December 1st, 2016, 02:40 AM   #49

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Tuious, obviously you are better informed than I am on Southwest Pacific in the 16th and 17th centuries, and I say that with sincerity.
Heheh, you don’t seem to hit my nick in your two previous posts! Anyway in Portugal we study the Portuguese discoveries with some detail, but most of my knowledge it is forgotten and/or outdated. I think there have been some developments in the last years, especially in the analysis of non-European sources
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Old December 1st, 2016, 08:40 AM   #50

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Quote:
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Edric,

As far as I know the firearms were introduced by the Portuguese in Japan.
Yes and no. There are records of Chinese matchlocks being used in a battle prior to Portuguese contact, but they became widespread after a Chinese ship carrying Portuguese traders crashed on Tanegashima island, and so early firearms were known as "Tanegashima".
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