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Old December 1st, 2016, 11:53 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Yes and no. There are records of Chinese matchlocks being used in a battle prior to Portuguese contact,
Interesting, could you specify?
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Old December 1st, 2016, 12:29 PM   #52

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My mistake - this is the battle I was thinking of:
Battle of Uedahara - SamuraiWiki

I thought it predated the Tanegashima, but it was 5 years after Portuguese contact, although the guns used here were Chinese made. The primitive Chinese hand cannon was known of, but not used, according to Wiki.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 04:14 PM   #53

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First Road? That is stretching it - did not the Inca make roads? These same roads are still used today in South America.

Did not the Aztec have cities with schools to educate their upper-classes? Which would count in my book as a University. The school and the books were burned by the Spanish.

Did not the Maya have temples? Which would count as cathedrals.

The Inca made many discoveries in medicine. They performed successful skull surgery, by cutting holes in the skull to alleviate fluid buildup and inflammation caused by head wounds. Many skull surgeries performed by Inca surgeons were successful. This would count as a hospital with doctors.

Spain did use slaves or a system of entrenched servitude :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repartimiento

now back to the original post - Spain vs Japan. Where in I ask why? Would not the troops be more useful to contain the American possessions, cleaning the seas of pirates, fighting European wars, or for another bite a the "let us invade England" apple.

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I am not sure that Brunei was that that important in the spice trade… don’t have that idea at all…

I am not also familiar with the Brunei-Spanish War, but I have the idea that some of what are today islands that belong to the Philippines were part of Brunei, directly or as Vassals.

The main spice sources in the Insulindia seem to have been the Maluku Islands, but I am not sure if they ever were under Brunei suzerainty, don’t think so. But again the Maluku Islands were pretty disputed between Portuguese and Spanish, from the Magellan voyage, at least until the Treaty of Zaragoza (1529), long before the existence of the Netherlands, that only arrived there 70 years later.



The piracy in Insulindia was also pretty intense, although I don’t think that we have data to say that was more or less intense that in the North Atlantic. Besides it was pretty rare to do the voyage from Manila to west to Spain. Basically the connection of Manila to Spain was via Mexico (in the XVI century). As it was natural, other countries didn’t like the Tordesilhas Treaty, but the merchants in Portugal and Spain took it pretty seriously. Even when they had the same kings.


Ah Brunei, Spain, the Aztec Empire, and the Maya Empire...they all contributed greatly to the world we live in. As to the discussion on the Spaniards and the Aztec Empire... The Aztecs were great warriors who could have arguably taken on 16th century Brunei. The Aztecs had flush toilets, had roads, had one of the largest cities in the world during its heydays. The Aztecs had innovative military abilities, certainly the Aztec Empire was a strong and impressive empire IMO. The Spanish Empire was one of the largest empires ever. The Spanish were renown for their tremendous circumnavigation abilities as for that matter were the English around the same time period...see Sir Francis Drake.



Continuing on with the Aztec Empire and the Spaniards

These encounters brought about an inevitable culture change, more striking in the case of the indigenous world, but significant also in the case of the Europeans. The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before, was followed by a prolonged and uninterrupted process of interaction and exchange.

https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-r...ansfer-new-wor

In the present times we have Dia de los muertos, or day of the dead is a celebration held in Mexico to honor the Spanish Catholic Explorers as well as the various tribes of the Americas. There are statues of Conquistadors standing proudly in South America, various statues of Aztec warriors standing proudly in Mexico.

Last edited by JoanOfArc007; December 1st, 2016 at 04:25 PM.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 07:41 PM   #54

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Japanese firearms were as effective as modern European ones. They also used them in en masse. While it is true that most Samurai preferred the bow, sword and spear as these were noble and traditional weapons they loved the arqubus and their ashigaru footbtroops had them in large numbers.

I've often considered the pre-gunpowder Japanese armies as inferior to European pre gunpowder ones. But with firearms negating European armour advantages I think the Japanese of the late 16th centuries would have been fairly matched against the better European armies.

But the point is not that they were better than Spanish troops it's that Spain doesn't have the ability to send a sufficient number of troops to Japan. The Japanese lords could mobilize armies of 50 000, 150 000 were earmarked for the invasions of Korea. Spain would need at least 50 000 men to arrive in Japan. In my opinion.

Being that the 50 000 they had waiting for the armada in 1588 lost about 10 000 men (soldiers not sailors) waiting safe and sound in Europe or on the short journey to England how many would she need to send to Japan to ensure she has enough troops alive by the time they make it? 80 000? 150 000? If Spain could mobilise that number of troops who would be left to defend Spain? How many ships would they need? How many supply ships to go with them? To even begin this journey and build and supply the fleet, requires, I'd guess more than Spain had. She lacked the manpower, wood, food but even if she miraculously can do it she then has to sail this fleet of what 1000-3000 galleys from Spain all they down Africa, back up around Africa, passed India the phillpenes and China... a journey of some 12 months?

Even if by another miracle no ships are wrecked or sunk they will be scattered and strung out and not arriving at the same time.

No European country in this time has the ability to reach Japan in this period in anything but small numbers.
By 1850 Britain and France have the naval/military strength and tech superiority to take parts of Japan. Not the mainland but some of the smaller islands.

Only Russia and the USA have ever had the chance in 1945 to do it.
The mongol invasion had it not drowned would have been nasty and they could have won if they had not washed up on the beach. But they are Asians and the fact that they met with disaster in such a small distance shows the extreme unlikelygood of Spain getting an invasion fkeet there.
The war of Spain in the Pacific after they conquered the Philippines were fought by large number of Filipinos and not by the Spaniards. Like when Spain attacked Borneo, only 400 Spaniards were there and more than 1000 warriors were Filipinos. Even when the Spaniards attacked Manila, among the largest contingent who hit Raja Suliman were indios from Panay Islands who supported Miguel Lopez De Lagazpi.

So, if the Spaniards were serious in attacking Japan, they won't get large army from Spain but they needed to organized indio army from the Philippine archipelago. Certainly not from Spain. At the most, the Spaniards can also augment their force by getting colonials from Mexico.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 08:17 PM   #55
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The mobilization scale of armies in Japan, even the army of a single Daimyo, is magnitudes larger than the Pacific Islanders that Spain was conquering. In fact, the army of important Daimyos in Japan such as Takeda or Mori would have mobilized armies that were as big as the entire standing army of Spain itself. Combined under Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, Spain is invading an Empire that had a more powerful military establishment that surpasses even that of the Ottoman Empire and itself.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 08:22 PM   #56

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If King Richard with much smaller army fought the huge of army of Saladin, it is not impossible for Spain to engage against that large army of Japan on the basis of speculative history as it is being discussed. The trouble for Spain at that time was logistics.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 08:28 PM   #57

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they make a few cities and then force the japanese to sign a treaty of some sort to hand over a few ports. there was actually an incident where some samuraii fought against spanish soldiers in 1582 known as the "1582 Cagayan battles". Here 40 spanish troops massacred about 1000 soldiers including ronnin, pirates, merchants and even fishers. Although the spanish were an elite army of soldiers and the japanese (tbh the weren't even mainly japanese) were just a ragtag army, It was still pretty humiliating. but the main reasons I dont think the spanish could hold the territory for long follows-

1. supply lines
their closest base is all the way in the americas. they're gonna run out of supplies fast if they dont conquer fast enough

2. number of troops
the japanese can levy armies as large as 100 000. the spanish would have to keep on reinforcing their lines consistently, usually from the americas. that would extremely slow and hard. it would only be a matter of time before the japanese overwhelm them

3. population dissent
even if the spanish do somehow manage do take a few cities, most of the japanese population will be dissented with their new rulers and will most likely revolt against them. i dont think the spanish garrisons could hold them off forever unless they commit a genocide. (which they probably would do)

the only way the spanish could win is if they brought alot of troops and attacked fast. kinda like a blitzkreig. surprising, hard, strong and fast. if they could take a few key cities before the japanese the mobilize, and force a treaty, then i guess it would be a spanish victory. after continously reinforcing these outposts or ports, they may lead a second assualt with even more men. this one may be successful but im not sure how long they could hold japan
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Old December 1st, 2016, 08:51 PM   #58

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Supposing by some miracle a Spanish army lands on Japanese soil, I wonder how it would have performed against Japanase arquebusiers at Nagashino?


An army of this:
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


against an army of this:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old December 2nd, 2016, 02:12 AM   #59

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The war of Spain in the Pacific after they conquered the Philippines were fought by large number of Filipinos and not by the Spaniards. Like when Spain attacked Borneo, only 400 Spaniards were there and more than 1000 warriors were Filipinos. Even when the Spaniards attacked Manila, among the largest contingent who hit Raja Suliman were indios from Panay Islands who supported Miguel Lopez De Lagazpi.

So, if the Spaniards were serious in attacking Japan, they won't get large army from Spain but they needed to organized indio army from the Philippine archipelago. Certainly not from Spain. At the most, the Spaniards can also augment their force by getting colonials from Mexico.
This is an important factor in most if not all the European (not only Spanish) colonial campaigns. A think that I have already mentioned in the post #43. The role of this “proxy”/auxiliaries is usually very underestimated in the European sources, but is essential in terms of numbers to give some backbone to any army, reconnaissance, and in terms of occupation of the terrain and logistics. Besides for this timeline “an what if invasion” would have to consider internal distensions in the invaded territory… and in this ilusional scenario would be some mercenaries or Christian Japanese, or some Worlord wanabe…

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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
The Spanish were renown for their tremendous circumnavigation abilities as for that matter were the English around the same time period...see Sir Francis Drake.
Sir Francis Drake made a tremendous journey in 1577-1580 around the globe, but he made it more than 50 years after the Magellan-Elcano voyage (1519-1522). On a joke side it is like to send an expedition to the Moon after the year 2019!!!

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In the present times we have Dia de los muertos, or day of the dead is a celebration held in Mexico to honor the Spanish Catholic Explorers as well as the various tribes of the Americas. There are statues of Conquistadors standing proudly in South America, various statues of Aztec warriors standing proudly in Mexico.
I have the idea that the “Día de Muertos”/“Day of the Dead” in Mexico is heavily influenced by pre-Colombian practices mixed with the Christian practice to honour the dead in the “All Souls' Day”, in a parallel way we see something similar in the Anglo-Saxon world with the “Halloween”. It is not directly related to the Spanish Explorers or Conquistadores, even if can belong to the choreography.

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Originally Posted by seneschal View Post
An army of this:
Beautiful miniature.
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Old December 2nd, 2016, 03:37 AM   #60

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