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Old December 31st, 2016, 07:49 PM   #1

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Could Germany and Austria-Hungary be one empire?


If Germany and Austria-Hungary became one, it could have been a fairly substantial empire in Central Europe.
The problem was that the areas of Austria-Hungary might have negative contributions to the strength of this empire.
The previous Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth proved that "size does not mean strength".
The Yuan Dynasty before its demise was also large, but it lacked the power to suppress the rebellions.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 08:05 AM   #2

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You know, I have wondered about this too ... the point is that the real Empire was the A-H one, not the Germany of the Kaiser. So that Vienna would have never accepted to be part of an empire ... Germany had to become part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire!
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Old January 1st, 2017, 09:06 AM   #3

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You can't have a cohesive multi-national, multicultural Empire unless the aspirations of minorities are suppressed or severely controlled--that's national, cultural, linguistic and religious aspirations. The Romans and the Turks managed to keep the lid on such problems largely by force with a small bit of tolerance, the British empire worked on a large degree of tolerance a little bit of force. The A-H Empire was not really a structured Empire--it was cobbled together as a compromise in the 1860s because the domination of Austria alone was no longer tenable--it had multiple citizenships, two main parliaments and several regional assemblies with varying powers, 14 languages, several judicial systems and religions. Essentially it was a customs union with a common defence and foreign affairs establishment. For the first twenty years of its existence it had four different currencies and the eventuial adoption of a single currency benefited only some regions.
Anyone who wants to see what the failings of the EU are and what will make it collapse has only to look at Austria Hungary.
Germany, on the other hand, was largely homogenous, ethnically and linguisitically. The religious differences among Germans were settled relatively peacefully among Secular and Protestant and Catholic Germans in the Kulturkampf, but were addressed strongly against the Polish and French Catholic minorities. It is hard to see Germany taking on the problems of a hodge-podge Austria-Hungary without ending up with a worse mess than actually occurred.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 09:10 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
You can't have a cohesive multi-national, multicultural Empire unless the aspirations of minorities are suppressed or severely controlled--that's national, cultural, linguistic and religious aspirations. The Romans and the Turks managed to keep the lid on such problems largely by force with a small bit of tolerance, the British empire worked on a large degree of tolerance a little bit of force. The A-H Empire was not really a structured Empire--it was cobbled together as a compromise in the 1860s because the domination of Austria alone was no longer tenable--it had multiple citizenships, two main parliaments and several regional assemblies with varying powers, 14 languages, several judicial systems and religions. Essentially it was a customs union with a common defence and foreign affairs establishment. For the first twenty years of its existence it had four different currencies and the eventuial adoption of a single currency benefited only some regions.
Anyone who wants to see what the failings of the EU are and what will make it collapse has only to look at Austria Hungary.
Germany, on the other hand, was largely homogenous, ethnically and linguisitically. The religious differences among Germans were settled relatively peacefully among Secular and Protestant and Catholic Germans in the Kulturkampf, but were addressed strongly against the Polish and French Catholic minorities. It is hard to see Germany taking on the problems of a hodge-podge Austria-Hungary without ending up with a worse mess than actually occurred.
Without Hungary ... the annexation ["Anschluss" to dive into the historical German context]. Hitler's way to create a new German Empire.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 09:45 AM   #5

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Without Hungary ... the annexation ["Anschluss" to dive into the historical German context]. Hitler's way to create a new German Empire.
A jump of twenty-five years, but yes, the Greater Germanic Reich of the German Nation would have had a "Germanic core", populations who could be "Germanised" (read Ayranised) and helots whose national and other aspirations would be suppressed by force.


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Old January 1st, 2017, 02:39 PM   #6
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There was a attempt bytes Austrians to swap the Austrian Netherlands for Bavaria , creating a larger Germanic/Catholic core which might have meant in this had been achieved. pre 1800 I cant recall exactly when some time 1700s.
'
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 02:24 AM   #7
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It's the "grossdeutsche" solution under Habsburg Austrian leadership, at the expense of Prussia. It's part what there historically was a war over, to clear the way for Prussia to step up and lead at Austrian expense in a "kleindeutsch" solution. Possibly would have been pulled off at the expense of the Hungarians striking out on their own.
Click the image to open in full size.
(Funnily enough I can find "die Grossdeutsche lösung" on German wikipedia, with links to a dozen+ languages, except nothing in English.)

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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:20 PM   #8
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Lest we forget, for several centuries there as an empire hose borders ere quite similar to the German reich and Austria-Hungary combined.

From 932 the king of Germany and Italy was Holy Roman Emperor, and from 1032 king of Burgundy also. And also the over lord of Bohemia. And for the next couple of centuries also the over lord, on and off, of Denmark, Poland, and Hungary-Croatia.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:21 PM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGolding View Post
Lest we forget, for several centuries there as an empire hose borders ere quite similar to the German reich and Austria-Hungary combined.

From 932 the king of Germany and Italy was Holy Roman Emperor, and from 1032 king of Burgundy also. And also the over lord of Bohemia. And for the next couple of centuries also the over lord, on and off, of Denmark, Poland, and Hungary-Croatia.
Why did the Holy Roman Empire fail in the first place?
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGolding View Post
Lest we forget, for several centuries there as an empire hose borders ere quite similar to the German reich and Austria-Hungary combined.

From 932 the king of Germany and Italy was Holy Roman Emperor, and from 1032 king of Burgundy also. And also the over lord of Bohemia. And for the next couple of centuries also the over lord, on and off, of Denmark, Poland, and Hungary-Croatia.
It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman and it wasn't an empire. It was a loose confederation of germanic statelets.
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