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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:42 AM   #31

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I have a book somewhere about 'the Straits' - which is really fascinating. Covers all the many sieges of Gibraltar over the last 1000 years or so (among other things).

One thing that always strikes me in history is that Gibraltar was never used as a landing strongpoint from Africa for invasions etc. The original arabs and berbers used Algeciras and Tarifa, the Almoravids Algeciras, the Almohads Castillejo to Tarifa, the Merinids Algeciras. All people who wanted a secure base for landing troops.

Given the natural strength of Gibraltar - castle fortified by the Almohads - one can only assume that it was in no way very suitable for landing ships until the British were forced to build facilities there after the conquest.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
The landing involved British and Dutch marines. Spanish and Austrian troops arrived after, some 2-3 days after the garrison surrendered.
Every British regiment carried a British flag, Every British ship flew a British naval flag if British troops and ships are there then they have their flags.
The opinion piece you quote even says "English flag was hoisted" and as to cowardice .... irrelevant .... but since you bring it up ....

"the Grand Alliance prepared for their assault the priests, women, and children who had taken refuge at the chapel of Europa Point at southern end of the peninsula, began to return to their homes in the town. An English ship fired a warning shot in front of the civilian column forcing them back out of harms way, but the shot was mistaken by the rest of the fleet as a signal to resume fire, and the bombardment began again. Under cover of the guns the landing party did its work.[24]

The foremost sailors clambered into the breached and undefended fort at the New Mole; however, by accident or design the magazine at the fort blew up. Some of the landing party carried lighted gun-matches and, according to Trevelyan, had forgotten the possibility of a powder-magazine. Whatever the cause of the explosion the Alliance suffered between 100–200 casualties.[25] A momentary panic ensued, for the survivors suspected an enemy-laid trap had caused the disaster. There was a rush for the boats, but at this critical moment Captain Whitaker arrived with reinforcements.[23] The landing was supported by a number of Catalan volunteers, from who one of Gibraltar's main spots, Catalan Bay, bears its name.[26] Within a few minutes the attackers had rallied and were proceeding north along the deserted ramparts of the seafront towards Gibraltar. On arriving near Charles V's southern wall of the town, Whitaker halted the sailors and hoisted the Union Flag in a bastion on the shore.[27]

Byng now came ashore with several hundred more seamen. Thus was the town invested by Byng in the south, as well as on its stronger northern side where the marines had landed with Prince George. Meanwhile, the party of the women and children stranded at Europa Point had been captured by English sailors. Rooke had given orders that the prisoners were not to be ill-treated, but the desire to recover these women was a further inducement for the defenders to end their resistance.[28] Seeing all was lost Don Diego agreed to terms that guaranteed the lives and property of those committed to his care. Under the capitulation French subjects were taken prisoner, while any Spaniard who would take an oath of allegiance to 'Charles III' as King of Spain could remain in the town with religion and property guaranteed. However, with the exception of a few families the Spanish elected to depart to the mainland, where shortly afterwards they founded the town of San Roque in sight of their ancient home.[29] Although the Spanish town of San Roque state that it's a town 'donde reside la de Gibraltar', this claim is not totally true as can be read in many books; the Spanish that decided not to remain in Gibraltar went as far away as Algeciras, Jerez and Ronda. A detailed article of all British (and Dutch 1704-1705) Infantry regiments that served at Gibraltar from 1704 up to 1945 can be found in the Gibraltar Heritage Journal, issues 14, 16 and 17, researched and written by V.J.Power (Gibraltar Heritage Trust"

No sign of cowardice there. And until you've been through a battle I strongly suggest you refrain from calling men braver than you cowards. Also note the raising of a British flag by the British.

Now. I'm not sure why I need to prove Britain and Spain were at war as that has nothing to do with how wrong you are.

Prince George of Hesse's Austrian Spanish troops arrived on the 6th August. The Fighting had finished by the 3rd.
No..the first to land were Spanish troops (Catalonian soldiers). And not conquest in the name of Britain or the British King but in name of Charles III of Spain. Thatīs the revelant.
Who said it was a coward act (not the battle but what Rooke did later) was a British...not me... one of the most miserable act commited by England.
And from 1704 to 1706 only it was celebrated the King of Spainīs birthday (Charles III future Charles VI HRE).
Only from 1706, it was celebrated the Queen Annīs birthday...
Gibraltar was a act of piracy...not a battle between Spain and Britain.. but between Habsbourg and Bourbon.

Gibraltar heritage is not a source... I prefer British and Spanish sources from XVIII-XIX century. Not English flag at all in the taking of Gibraltar.. but, as well said British Encyclopeida, in the name of Charles III whose soverignty was proclaimed in Gibraltar.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:03 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
I have a book somewhere about 'the Straits' - which is really fascinating. Covers all the many sieges of Gibraltar over the last 1000 years or so (among other things).

One thing that always strikes me in history is that Gibraltar was never used as a landing strongpoint from Africa for invasions etc. The original arabs and berbers used Algeciras and Tarifa, the Almoravids Algeciras, the Almohads Castillejo to Tarifa, the Merinids Algeciras. All people who wanted a secure base for landing troops.

Given the natural strength of Gibraltar - castle fortified by the Almohads - one can only assume that it was in no way very suitable for landing ships until the British were forced to build facilities there after the conquest.
I agree with you. It was not a good place to land. In fact, the Habsbourg didnīt land mainly in Gibraltar but in other area of the coast.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:09 AM   #34

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I believe Oliver Cromwell wanted to unite the British with Holland and create one state - but not so much out of expansionism, but crossed wires between the two countries, with Cromwell misunderstanding previous comments they had made.
Suffice to say, it never happened, and just left everyone feeling vaguely embarrassed about the whole thing.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 03:50 AM   #35

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The name is irrelevant. They raised a Union flag. Said so right there. Even named the officer who did it. The action may have been taken in the name of the grand alliance But the British phiscally raised their flag there.

You say you trust British and Spanish sources but the thrust of your argument relies on.... encyclopaedia Brittanica?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:53 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
The name is irrelevant. They raised a Union flag. Said so right there. Even named the officer who did it. The action may have been taken in the name of the grand alliance But the British phiscally raised their flag there.

You say you trust British and Spanish sources but the thrust of your argument relies on.... encyclopaedia Brittanica?
Based on witness.. spanish-Austrian-Dutch-British... the Spanish (catalanian) landed the first one. And not It is irrelevant the name... Donīt be a personification of the famous "Perfidious Albion"...
Gibraltar was taken in name of a Spanish King, in a Spanish civil War and with a Spanish flag hoisted in the top of the town. In fact, the Spanish flag continued hoisted till 1705 summer, and the Kingīs Birthday celebrated till 1706 (first year it was celebrated the Queenīs Birthday).

The British historian William Coxen (1748-1828), so happy to write about British feats, he thought Gibraltar was a miserable action and a black page in history of Britain..Rookeīs responsability and not a war action between two countries in war... Buenos Aires-Montevideo, 1806, 1807, Jamaica, 1655, Havana, 1748, Cartagena etc etc they were actions of wars between Sp-GB... Gibraltar was not an action of war between Sp-GB but between Spanish Habsburg vs Spanish Bourbons.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:36 AM   #37

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Of Which British were an ally of Spanish Hapsburgs. And when they took Gibraltar they hoisted the Union Flag. I see no reference to British sailors or soldiers carrying Hapsburgs flags. I concede that possibly the Spanish troops that entered Gibraltar AFTER (3 days) it was taken by the Anglo Dutch, may have hoisted their flag later. But the British physically hoisted their own colours on the day of the storm.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
Of Which British were an ally of Spanish Hapsburgs. And when they took Gibraltar they hoisted the Union Flag. I see no reference to British sailors or soldiers carrying Hapsburgs flags. I concede that possibly the Spanish troops that entered Gibraltar AFTER (3 days) it was taken by the Anglo Dutch, may have hoisted their flag later. But the British physically hoisted their own colours on the day of the storm.
Not Anglo-Dutch but Anglo-Dutch-Austrian-Spanish. Exactly 350 Spanish soldiers (Catalan) took part in the attack.

In 1704, during the capture of Gibraltar by an Anglo-Dutch combined operation, an expedition landed there of around 350 Catalans followers of Charles of Austria and commanded by Prince Georg von Hessen Darmstadt (Catalonia's deputy and delegate of Charles of Austria) and general Joan Baptista Basset. They most likely came to Gibraltar in at least five ships (...).

Gibraltar was taken in name of Charles III and the flag was hoisted it was the Flag of Spain by the viceroy of Catalonia, Prince of Hesse-Darmstadt... later Rooke at his own...hoisted the English flag.

Simply as that. In any case, the only issue for me it was to show Gibraltar was not any British victory during a war between Spain and Britain..

Regards.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:59 PM   #39

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Denying it as a British victory? When all descriptions of the battle admit, the Austro Spanish contingent took no part in the fighting.
The Catalans, as I saw it, are described as volunteers not soldiers and were unopposed.
But finally you concede the British hoisted their own flag but not later. They hoisted it first.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #40
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What about King Henry the Third - he nearly consumed the whole of France and Ireland.
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