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Old September 13th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #1
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1207 AD: Jin and Song China receive advanced technology


(1207) Four years before the Mongol Invasion of the Jin Dynasty of China a Time-Traveller gives advance technology to the Chinese


Specifically, he gives the Jin and Song Dynasties 18th-Century Muskets, Cannons and lots of papers regarding the metallurgy and manufacturing processes for the weapons

He also introduces the printing press, steam engine and the railroad transportation to the two Chinese Nations


How would this affect their future wars against the Mongols and each other?


How would the earlier introduction of such inventions affect Asia and Europe?



What other changes would there be to World History?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 03:10 AM   #2

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China beats the mongols , the advanced stuff somehow spread to west and a little advancement in timeframe but not much else I think.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 03:13 AM   #3

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Well the opium wars would likely have turned out differently, if they even happened
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Old September 14th, 2017, 07:59 AM   #4
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@Moonreaper666 I read that Song was Han (chinese) dynasty, whilst Jin was Jurchen (tungusic people) dynasty. My question is why your time traveler gives XVIII century weaponry to Song AND Jin taking into account multiple conflicts between these two dynasties before and after 1207.

Jin repels the mongols, but the war with Song is a lot more bloody than in the original timeline.

EDIT: With Yuan dynasty out of the picture, ergo no Ming and no Qing in this timeline, probably Genghis and his mongols run as mad in western direction far away from Jin and its muskets & cannons. Prediction: northwestern part of the mongol empire/lately golden horde is in central Europe instead of Russia.

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; September 14th, 2017 at 08:30 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
@Moonreaper666 I read that Song was Han (chinese) dynasty, whilst Jin was Jurchen (tungusic people) dynasty. My question is why your time traveler gives XVIII century weaponry to Song AND Jin taking into account multiple conflicts between these two dynasties before and after 1207.

Jin repels the mongols, but the war with Song is a lot more bloody than in the original timeline.

EDIT: With Yuan dynasty out of the picture, ergo no Ming and no Qing in this timeline, probably Genghis and his mongols run as mad in western direction far away from Jin and its muskets & cannons. Prediction: northwestern part of the mongol empire/lately golden horde is in central Europe instead of Russia.
A lot of their resources and manpower came from conquering China

Could they even conquer Eastern Europe and Persia without those extra men and material?


Does Feudalism end within two decades in both Europe and the Middle-East?


How early does Industrialization occur in different parts of the world?


How different would Korea and China be in this Alternate History?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 08:57 AM   #6
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@Moonreaper666 I dont believe Jin would be interested to chase mongols to atlantic ocean shores. Kubilai khan and his descendants used vast resources and manpower of China, because they ruled this land as Yuan dynasty. It is true though mongols as Hilegu for example employed chinese siege engineers, sappers and artillery specialists in their advance west and won partly due to their skill and know how. I got it. You think that without them mongols are screwed big time in this alternative universe.

EDIT: ..but what happens to Jin and Song and their XVIII century conflict?

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; September 14th, 2017 at 09:01 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 08:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
@Moonreaper666 I dont believe Jin would be interested to chase mongols to atlantic ocean shores. Kubilai khan and his descendants used vast resources and manpower of China, because they ruled this land as Yuan dynasty. It is true though mongols as Hilegu for example employed chinese siege engineers, sappers and artillery specialists in their advance west and won partly due to their skill and know how. I got it. You think that without them mongols are screwed big time in this alternative universe.

EDIT: ..but what happens to Jin and Song and their XVIII century conflict?
What 18th-Century conflicts? Both Dynasties were LONG gone by that point

I assume that there would be cold-war tensions between the two lone superpowers

Neither Jin nor Song would want to pick a fight with each other

-Song Dynasty expands into India and the Middle-East

-Jin Dynasty expands into Siberia and Eastern Europe


The Mongols reign would be shorter in this Alternate Timeline

(Flintlock Muskets beat Horse Archers)

(Europeans and Arabs would beat the Nomads in a Cannon engagement)

They would attempt to expand their territories and acquire more client states
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Old September 14th, 2017, 09:50 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Moonreaper666 View Post
What 18th-Century conflicts? Both Dynasties were LONG gone by that point

I assume that there would be cold-war tensions between the two lone superpowers

Neither Jin nor Song would want to pick a fight with each other

-Song Dynasty expands into India and the Middle-East

-Jin Dynasty expands into Siberia and Eastern Europe


The Mongols reign would be shorter in this Alternate Timeline

(Flintlock Muskets beat Horse Archers)

(Europeans and Arabs would beat the Nomads in a Cannon engagement)

They would attempt to expand their territories and acquire more client states
I meant wars between the Jin dynasty and the Song dynasty in the XII and XIII centuries in the original timeline. In the alternative they fight with XVIII century muskets & cannons provided by your time lord, hence XVIII century conflict between XII century regional great powers. I somehow doubt that they would cease this series of conflicts all of the sudden and divide the world or at least Asia and Europe between them as you describe above.

May i suggest your Doctor Who to give these weapons to Song? Thus they crush Jin and the mongols, though without XIII century cold war rival they would probably end up with unification of what is today China /refuse to expand north, west or any other direction.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 05:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
@Moonreaper666 I read that Song was Han (chinese) dynasty, whilst Jin was Jurchen (tungusic people) dynasty. My question is why your time traveler gives XVIII century weaponry to Song AND Jin taking into account multiple conflicts between these two dynasties before and after 1207.
No, both Song and Jin were multi-cultural empires. The ruling class of the Jin was Jurchens, but the populace was mostly Sinitic, and with some Khitans and Bohai as well. And the ruling class of the Song was Sinitic, but a lot of the populace in southern and southwestern China was of southern native origin.
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Old September 18th, 2017, 09:41 PM   #10
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No, both Song and Jin were multi-cultural empires. The ruling class of the Jin was Jurchens, but the populace was mostly Sinitic, and with some Khitans and Bohai as well. And the ruling class of the Song was Sinitic, but a lot of the populace in southern and southwestern China was of southern native origin.
Would the Industrialization of both Chinese Empires make the world a better place?

Does this reduce the human death toll and economic destruction wrought by the Mongols?

Do the Chinese colonize Hawaii, Philippines, Australia and the New World?

Will the Chinese Dynasties attack the Mongols, Arabs and Europeans to conquer them?
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