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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:33 AM   #11

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Paulus was a pretty good staff officer , he warned Rommel that supply would be a very difficult problem for him , he was right
the supply staff of the Wehrmacht warned that after Smolensk the offensive would grind to a halt
their concern were brushed off

Hitler had a consistent strategic vision , the destruction and capture of the means of the soviets to wage war
Taking the Ukraine meant no food ,no Iron , no coal , no manpower , all the heavy industrial centers taken
Germany needed those , northern Russia only could offer forest product and mosquitoes

fighting battles was not how he saw it ,
he was particularly leery of battles in cities , Leningrad and Moscow had to be invested , not taken by storm
For all practical purpose , the turn to the Ukraine was his idea of what the war should be , taking Rostov was way more important that taking Moscow
that one was his general obsession and it was really old Prussian thinking , stupid and not affordable

If Typhoon had not been launched and more effort pursued in the South the war would have been totally different
no battle of Moscow ,there would have been enough trains to bring the winter gear
the soviet armies would have broken themselves on good defensive positions
their logistics were so bad then that fighting close to the Moscow rail heads was all in their favor

and with a bit of drive German tanks would have stood on the Western bank of the Volga for Christmas 1941

Post war there is a conspiracy to blame Hitler for every disaster (he got some, OK ) and to paint the general staff as sweet angels of mercy
That humbug

Last edited by sparky; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:36 AM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:11 AM   #12
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Operation Barbarossa: 9 popular myths busted | History Extra
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 04:29 PM   #13

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That's about right , the weather during the Moscow counterattack is anew one for me , well worth digging
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 05:08 PM   #14

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Originally Posted by Karl XII View Post
Another one of these threads......

Anyway the soviets still win despite higher than real life casualties.
I thought Barbarossa was planned by the General Staff including Rundstedt and Guderian?
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:03 PM   #15
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I thought Barbarossa was planned by the General Staff including Rundstedt and Guderian?
And Halder
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Old January 4th, 2018, 10:02 AM   #16
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Is this before or after Japan has conquered all of the US, Canada and Mexico ?
Please don't mix up threads or you might mention my WW I threads or threads with Alexander.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 10:12 AM   #17
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Please don't mix up threads or you might mention my WW I threads or threads with Alexander.
Why not ?... Germany and Japan are sort of allied, so what Japan does is important, is it not ? In your other thread Japan is busy conquering the world with the help of India and China.... So the germans have to hurry if they want a piece of the action

Actually they might even be afraid of Japan, supported as it is by China and India and flush with its victories controlling the better part of 2 continents... They may want to keep their pact with the USSR going lest Japan uses that opportunity to invade Germany

Last edited by tomar; January 4th, 2018 at 10:17 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 10:31 AM   #18
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So drive only north and south, ignore center. So as army groups north and south advances the Soviets in central region just sit and twiddle thumbs. As Germans drive deep into Soviet territory, to the Baltics and Caspian, they are essentially forming a letter C with no hope of those two army groups ever actually meeting. What they do have is a gigantic exposed supply line that is facing the Soviet forces holding the center who are unoccupied. That plan would cause both army groups to be encircled, cut off, destroyed.

The whole reason for a three army group thrust was because the size of the Soviet Union and the number of maneuver forces they had at their disposal ensured it was necessary. No one region could be ignored, no one army group could drive too much further than the other without a significant risk of being outflanked.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 10:36 AM   #19
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And Halder
Yes. Halder was chief of the General Staff, Paulus ran operations branch for it, so it was Paulus' job to come up with plans and for Halder to supervise with other branches of the General Staff and to coordinate with others.

Most of the top level other generals, like Rundstedt and Guderian, were holding field commands in France or were detailed in other jobs, they contributed a bit to some pieces of Barbarossa mostly by giving their opinions after they read the draft but it wasn't their job to write it, or approve any of it, just to be the instruments to carry it out.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 12:36 PM   #20
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This is an interesting topic. Operation Barbarossa was a hugely successful campaign that enabled Germany to conquer huge amounts of land and destroy countless Soviet armys. It was one of the best applications of mobile warfare ever seen... At least until the USSR recovered and began to pull stunts like operation Uranus and Bagration!

In the first five weeks, the Germans surrounded and reduced huge pockets of Soviet troops at Bialystok-Minsk, Smolensk, and Uman. In the following seven weeks, they did it again at Luga, Gomel, Galicia, and Kiev (the largest battle of encirclement in history). After that, the summer operation of Barbarossa ended, and operation Typhoon was begun.


As successful as it was, however, the invasion plan faced a number of hurdles. First off was that the Red Army was much larger than initially predicted, and had a much greater level of reserves too. Second was that the USSR was a vast nation that could use its strategic depth to absorb the punishment of a Blitzkrieg, allowing them to fall back without losing the war. Third was that the Soviet Union was a strong dictatorship that could not easily suffer a political collapse of will.

These factors made it nearly impossible for the Germans to achieve a quick, purely military victory. (They may have been able to get a Brest-Litovsk esque treaty if their aims were more limited) They also made it very difficult to land any kindof a knockout blow on the USSR during 1941. Going after Moscow was the only way this conceivably have been done, and the margin for error in that operation is tiny. The smallest mistake can doom the whole campaign.
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