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Old December 15th, 2017, 10:15 AM   #31

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Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
Thatís not fair! That actually happened.
Ah, someone gets it...Its HISTORY!
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Old December 15th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #32

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Me, I'm wondering what parallel universe this is in where the Chinese forgive and forget Nanking and all the earlier events and go skipping hand-in-hand with the Japanese into a greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, 3 years after the events.

It's been nearly 80 years, and they still haven't done so.
Wait, are you saying nearly ten years of war marked by atrocities that made even the Nazis blanche wouldn't be easily ignored for some sort of alliance to attack powers wholly unrelated to them?
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Old December 15th, 2017, 10:32 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Me, I'm wondering what parallel universe this is in where the Chinese forgive and forget Nanking and all the earlier events and go skipping hand-in-hand with the Japanese into a greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, 3 years after the events.

It's been nearly 80 years, and they still haven't done so.
Now you made me wonder what was Wang Jinwei's position on that.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 07:48 AM   #34
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Indeed, this is the only way Japan wins, and it's the easiest.
The US had a smaller, much inferior Pacific fleet than the IJN. The US army was ridiculous in 1939, even in Dic 1941, when Japan struck. It simplydid not think it could ever be invaded, just like you do.
Even in Kasserine Pass, after a Year of war, inexperienced American troops were wiped out easily by experienced Germans. Experienced Japanese and Chinese troops and Indian troops with them would sweep the US army. The air was even weaker.

LThe US was an invader's dream, specially California:
a) undefended Mexico and Canada, easy logistocs (plenty of food, oil, trucks, trains, airfields, ports, roads, etc,), excellent weather and terrain (much better than New Guinea, Malaya, Burma, Guadalcanal, Manchuria, Chang Sha, etc,).

b) the Sierra blocking counter attacks and practically unpopulated Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Arizona adjacent to it. California itself, very sparsely populated. Most of the population move in after war was declared.

c) invaluable industry, oil, coast, fisheries, lumber, brand new Grand Coulle, Dalles and Hoover dams and aluminum plants in even less populated WA state and Arizona.

After PH in 1941 the chiefs of staff infromed Roosevelt that California was untenable.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #35
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That the chinese somehow ally to the japanese... well weird alliances HAVE happened...

What has not happened is for distances to magically shrink and logistical constraints to disappear overnight.. In this scenario do the japanese have space ships and anti gravity devices ?

If anyone thinks that the Japanese could have landed a large enough expeditionary corp in the americas and managed to supply it enough that they could defeat local US or even canadian forces (while in parallel with their infinite resources and to keep from being bored also seizing Australia, New Zealand and India, and while they are at it Iraq... one wonders why not South Africa) there are living in some kind of magical mist. This is even before the plain fact that outside of the initial Philippines campaign, the japanese were not very good at defeating US troops on land...In particular they had very few tanks and those they had were laughable....

Just a few pointers: Japan land area 0.37 mio sq KM...
This is the country that will take on several continents.. US and Canada are each about 9 mio sq kilometers.. Australia about 7.... and I am leaving out other areas which together total over 3 mio sq km.... This is of course not speaking about oceans and distances of several thousand miles.....Sure China can supply some land armies (not very good ones judging by their historical performance in WW2) but no navy or air force to speak of...SO not very helfpul outside of south east asia..

For reference the biggest territorial gains in WW2 did not exceed 3 mio sq km
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Old December 26th, 2017, 08:41 AM   #36
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The US had a smaller, much inferior Pacific fleet than the IJN. The US army was ridiculous in 1939, even in Dic 1941, when Japan struck. It simplydid not think it could ever be invaded, just like you do.
Even in Kasserine Pass, after a Year of war, inexperienced American troops were wiped out easily by experienced Germans. Experienced Japanese and Chinese troops and Indian troops with them would sweep the US army. The air was even weaker.

LThe US was an invader's dream, specially California:
a) undefended Mexico and Canada, easy logistocs (plenty of food, oil, trucks, trains, airfields, ports, roads, etc,), excellent weather and terrain (much better than New Guinea, Malaya, Burma, Guadalcanal, Manchuria, Chang Sha, etc,).

b) the Sierra blocking counter attacks and practically unpopulated Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Arizona adjacent to it. California itself, very sparsely populated. Most of the population move in after war was declared.

c) invaluable industry, oil, coast, fisheries, lumber, brand new Grand Coulle, Dalles and Hoover dams and aluminum plants in even less populated WA state and Arizona.

After PH in 1941 the chiefs of staff infromed Roosevelt that California was untenable.
The US population in 1941 was over 130 mio or about twice that of Japan...
California was at minimum defended by a big moat called the Pacific ocean. The distance from Tokyo to San Francisco or LA is over 8 000 km...

With great difficulty the Japanese coud probably put some troops ashore in California..... but even with the US navy somehow entirely wiped out how is Japan going to conquer the US ? they were not able to conquer the much weaker chinese who were much closer to home and had no tanks, no planes, and little industry ? (china and the US have similar size)
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:29 AM   #37
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BTW if you are into wargaming I suggest the World in Flames series.... It has an extension America in Flames.....
The scenario starts with Germany, Italy and Japan (who have triumphed in their respective fronts) poised to invade the americas.... Its only the US, Canada and a few free french forces left to oppose them.. meanwhile both the US and Germany are developing the atomic bomb.. In the initial phase there is some diplomacy to sway latin american countries... its easy for the axis to get Argentina and a couple of others on their side, which gives them a beachhead in the americas without a fight...But the americas is a very big place....

Well its hard for the axis!

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #38

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Originally Posted by ruthenium View Post
..............
1) 3 Chinese and 2 Japanese divs from Sumatra will invade Ceylon, declare Indian independence and induce India to join the coalition, in order to buy rice, fuel, etc, to expand and to develop a steel industry and sell iron ore and steel to Japan and China. Indian will render the coalition practically invincible.,
How on earth are you going to conquer India with just 5 Divisions of troops?

Never mind how they are going to go to Ceylon and or be supplied there.

Why would India suddenly support Japan or China? because they didn't in WWII.

And just how ,even if they changed, would it make the coalition invincible?

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Originally Posted by ruthenium View Post
2) 4 Japanese and 4 Chinese divs from Sumatra will invade South Africa, securing chromium, gold, diamonds, coal, etc, and denying the Indian Ocean to the RN.,
How the hell do they get to South Africa and how are they supplied?

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Originally Posted by ruthenium View Post
3) 3 Japanese and 3 Chinese divs will invade Australia, securing manganese and iron ores, meat, wool, sugar, etc,
As above!

I think you'd be better off reading some history rather than viewing WWII as a game of 'Risk'.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by tomar View Post
That the chinese somehow ally to the japanese... well weird alliances HAVE happened...

What has not happened is for distances to magically shrink and logistical constraints to disappear overnight.. In this scenario do the japanese have space ships and anti gravity devices ?

If anyone thinks that the Japanese could have landed a large enough expeditionary corp in the americas and managed to supply it enough that they could defeat local US or even canadian forces (while in parallel with their infinite resources and to keep from being bored also seizing Australia, New Zealand and India, and while they are at it Iraq... one wonders why not South Africa) there are living in some kind of magical mist. This is even before the plain fact that outside of the initial Philippines campaign, the japanese were not very good at defeating US troops on land...In particular they had very few tanks and those they had were laughable....

Just a few pointers: Japan land area 0.37 mio sq KM...
This is the country that will take on several continents.. US and Canada are each about 9 mio sq kilometers.. Australia about 7.... and I am leaving out other areas which together total over 3 mio sq km.... This is of course not speaking about oceans and distances of several thousand miles.....Sure China can supply some land armies (not very good ones judging by their historical performance in WW2) but no navy or air force to speak of...SO not very helfpul outside of south east asia..

For reference the biggest territorial gains in WW2 did not exceed 3 mio sq km
The distance Japan-Vancover is nothing, Japanese ships transported millions of tons of oil, scrap iron, lumber, etc, for long years before the war.

While the Japanese were fighting millions of Chinese on 7 Dec, 1941 (having to supply them), they landed large armies in the PI (which wiped out Mac's stronger force, with a more powerful air fleet than that in WA state), landed several divisions each in Malaya, Thailand, Hong Kong, Guam, the Gilberts, etc, while all their CV, 2 BB, etc, were trouncing the USN, aviation, etc, in PH, all simultaneously and within weeks attacked Wake, which they failed to take at first, only because they had no guns heavier than destroyers and CL and no airplanes, while the US had 12 Wildcats (which were invaluable at the time, so it was rather stupid to waste them in an untenable island, which fell as soon as carrier planes and heavier guns returning from the PH raid attacked it. Because of that stupidity, invaluable Yorktown and Enterprise returning separately to PH were extremely vulnerable, had few fighters and some of them useless Buffalo, The USN was extremely lucky that Nagumo rushed away with his invincible fleet, instead of lingering to send a 3er wave and sink at least a weak carrier with his six), Borneo, etc, Burma, Singapore, etc, Within konths the Japanese also raided Darwin and Ceylon (quite far from Japan and from each other, but close the the former DEI, controlled by Japan. In a couple of months Japan wiped ou all American, British, Dutch planes and troops over a huge area with limited food, etc, Just the 700 km they pedalled on bicycle in Malaya, through jungles, etc, for 3 division to capture over 100,000 British troops is a colossal feat, compared to landing in Mexico, Canada and extremely sparsely populated and weakly defended US west coast. Similarly, 2 divisons in extremely difficult Burma defeated several British divisions, 10 Chinese division (rushed in too late, because the British didn't think that they needed them).

ATL no transport capacity or Japanese troops are wasted on China and all those locations, the Japanese have acquired even more ships from the British in the Pacific Indian Ocean, when they took Singapore, Ceylon, South Africa, etc, and declared Indian indipendence and they have millions of experienced Chinese troops available. The west coast has more food than people, again, it is an invader's dream compared to Chang Sha, Central Burma, the Kokoda Trail, Borneo, Malaya, etc,
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Old December 27th, 2017, 07:56 AM   #40
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The US population in 1941 was over 130 mio or about twice that of Japan...
California was at minimum defended by a big moat called the Pacific ocean. The distance from Tokyo to San Francisco or LA is over 8 000 km...

With great difficulty the Japanese coud probably put some troops ashore in California..... but even with the US navy somehow entirely wiped out how is Japan going to conquer the US ? they were not able to conquer the much weaker chinese who were much closer to home and had no tanks, no planes, and little industry ? (china and the US have similar size)
That primitive, arrogant thinking is precisely what caused the PH debacle. They assumed that Hawaii (very far from Japan and quite close to Acapulco, Tijuana and San Diego) was defended by distance, so poor, small and primitive Japanese could only attack the PI, where Mac, could easily defeat them (magically, because the USN had a few WW I 4 stackers, 2 CL and a CA, which hauled ass to British Borneo, before the attack, because they knew they would be sunk on the first day by the IJN and aviation from Formosa, so how the hell do you defend an archipelago, without a fleet?)

The same primitive, arrogant thinking drove Churchill to waste two BB. The bombastic bastard assumed that the huge IJN fleet and Japanese avation would be affraid of his new Prince of Wales, which was sunk in hours of combat, with bombers all the way from very distant Indochina.

South Africa is much closer to Ceylon than it is to Britain, is extremely weak and inexperienced and it has more food than people, and good climate, so it is easy to invade from Ceylon.

Please read more carefully before you comment. I never claimed that Japan and China invaded India, I said that the coalition invaded Burma (from China and Thailand) and Ceylon, much easier to invade at the mentioned time than Malaya and Burma were OTL in 1941, with hundreds of British planes and large forces from India, Britain and Australia in Malaya, which were promptly beaten by Yamashita's 3 divisions. The coalition simply declares Indian independence. With Japan ruling the Indian Ocean, India has to join the coalition to buy Burmese rice, japanese oil, etc, from Sumatra and Japanese industrial products and to expand into Iran, British colonies, etc, with an invincible coalition.

I find it amusing that Americans often deride the 1939 Polish army, with horses, etc, on 1 Spet, 1939, the US army had a lot fewer and more primitive tanks and planes than Poland did and a much smaller and more poorly trained and equipped army. The USN had lots of 4 stackers, the worst torpedoes in the world, less reliable than Norwegian, Italian or Soviet torpedoes, while Japan had the formidable long lance, etc, The USN and US army and air force became formidable, only after long years of investing ridiculously huge amounts of money on Britain, the USSR and itself and ridiculously small amounts on China, so they could buy time for it to produce enough armament for its incompetent forces to smother the more competent, but eventually more poorly equipped axis military. ATL the US does not have time and as it loses oil, industry, farmland, etc, the coalition becomes stronger. Germany is defeating Britain, because millions of tons or US and British armament and supplies are not reaching the incompetent British military in North Africa (the axis in South Africa and the US rushing to arm itself), the European axis attacking New England, New Orleans, etc, would pulverize the US in weeks.

Last edited by ruthenium; December 27th, 2017 at 08:14 AM.
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